4n1 bucket integrity

[jmfox]

Has anyone had any problems with 4n1 bucket failures, like bending or anything that affects the level of the cutting edge?

jmf

 

[Charlesaf3]

Not yet, just got mine, but I'd imagine they'd be subject to the same issues as a regular bucket, with the same variables.

I got a toothbar on mine because of it's general utility, and to protect the cutting edge.

 

[IslandTractor]

I have not had any trouble with my 4n1 but I do see that there are a couple of vulnerablities.

First is that you really don't want to clamp down hard on a solid non crushable object in the middle of the bucket. Imagine using it as a fence post puller and clamping hard on a vertical metal tube filled with concrete. The middle of the movable jaw is not well supported for that sort of pressure and the combination of 4n1 hydraulics plus the power of the FEL could combine to injure (bend) the movable jaw.

The second concern I have is that on some designs (like my WRLong) the grease zerks can be found in pretty dumb places so that they are constantly jammed up with dirt. It makes greasing a hassle and raises the possibility that grit is being forced into the zerk. That may not be an issue for all designs.

The final concern I have is not so much for the 4n1 bucket but rather for the FEL arms when using the 4n1 in bulldozer mode. Tractor FEL arms are long and vulnerable compared to true bulldozer arms and it is certainly possible to hurt the FEL by hitting an immovable object off center if you are moving with a lot of power or speed.

I like my 4n1 but like most "swiss army knife" tools, it performs none of its advertized functions as well or as safely as a dedicated tool so use it cautiously. I use mine as an all around bucket when I don't have a very specific task in mind. I switch to the grapple immediately if I think I'm going to be moving more than an occasional piece of wood or brush or larger stump. I can easily get 5 times the amount of brush in a grapple and the load doesn't fall out while moving. The 4n1 has less bucket capacity so is not the preferred tool for moving big volumes of dirt or gravel either. I like it a lot for helping to clean up a bit after I've used the backhoe to take out a stump and it is useful as a bulldozer blade for small brush or moving dirt back into a hole. I don't dig with it much (I have a BH and don't have a toothbar). I have not done much backdragging/cutting with the jaw open (the 4th function).

 

[Ductape]

I've often wondered this about the 4 n 1s. I was looking at the Longs..... but something light duty enough for my B3030's LA403 loader can lift. I've been suspecting picking up a chunk of wood (or what have you) off center might cause some problems. Since its on my long list and not my short list i won't lose sleep over it tonight........ but would love any feedback if anyone here has a lighter duty WR Long 4 n 1.

 

[IslandTractor]

........ but would love any feedback if anyone here has a lighter duty WR Long 4 n 1.

My comments above are based on using a lighter or medium duty WRLong 4n1. I'm not certain but I think it is the HJ60. I bought it used but it had not been used much. Second photo shows one zerk completely covered in dirt and another protected zerk that is jammed full of dirt after routine use. To be clear, I have not damaged the unit at all but it is clear that this is a more vulnerable piece of equipment than either my Millonzi LD48 grapple or the Kioti standard bucket. I don't believe that has anything to do with WRLong (well maybe the zerk placement), but rather is inherent to the universal 4n1 design.

 

[Charlesaf3]

hmm. Generally would agree with the swiss army knife and the pushing, but my CA 4n1 is rated extreme duty and I believe it - the clamp part of my movable jaw is very reinforced, and the other side is a grader blade. Clamping rocks doesn't bother it

So I think it depends on the rating of the 4n1. Mine does weigh over 800 pounds I think, which is the flip side.

I dont think the 3030 loader is strong enough to use one usefully - anything which was light enough for the loader would probably be too fragile. I think a grapple is generally a better bet for it.

 

[IslandTractor]

hmm. Generally would agree with the swiss army knife and the pushing, but my CA 4n1 is rated extreme duty and I believe it - the clamp part of my movable jaw is very reinforced, and the other side is a grader blade. Clamping rocks doesn't bother it

I think the issue is not so much that you cannot build a tough 4n1 but rather that there are specific vulnerabilities related to the basic design. Putting an uncrushable object in the middle of the open jaw and then either trying to crush it with powerful hydraulic force or by moving a powerful tractor will put a lot of pressure on the least supported part of the 4n1 (middle of the movable jaw). My point was not that you couldn't use the thing aggressively but rather that being aware of the design limitations is a good thing. If you know where the weak points are you can do your best to avoid them. Same story with a grapple. I don't think you can hurt a decent grapple with a straightforward lifting load but a lateral or twisting load can damage a grapple. Several guys with very high end ANBOs have twisted them with asymmetric loads in the clamshell. Likewise with an FEL, you won't hurt it trying to lift a 10 ton boulder strapped midline to the bucket but you might hurt it by sticking one edge of the bucket under that same boulder and trying to lift it due to the one sided twisting force.

 

[jmfox]

the clamp part of my movable jaw is very reinforced, and the other side is a grader blade. Clamping rocks doesn't bother it

Do you have a photo or can you give details on how reinforcement was accomplished?

jmf

 

[Charlesaf3]

Island tractor - I agree in general, but that specific vulnerability seems to have been addressed in mine, and I've had the hydraulics go into relief on rocks clamping a bunch of times with it with barely a scratch.

But in exchange, I'd say there's more steel on the clamp side of the jaw then there is on the digging side. I'll take some pics and post them. In description, I'd say its sort of a reinforced triangle.

I'd bet that what Island tractor describes is exactly what happened, and that's why its so reinforced in that location.

And of course, when something is reinforced, that just pushes the point of failure somewhere else, no doubt.

As an aside, I might try my millonzi 48 on the M59 today. It'll be interesting to see what happens to it. But nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[jmfox]

I agree that the clam is vulnerable in middle and I am surprised that bucket designer's do not know it. At least I have not seen any buckets with center reinforcement. I assume there was something inside the layers that I could not see, but I guess not as I bent my bucket carrying a tree trunk. Often a wooded environment makes it impossible to carry a tree sideways so I typically pick it up from the back with the trunk facing forwards. It was not too heavy for the machine but when I dropped it I noticed the clam was bowed. There are many ways to cause damage by purposely or accidentally ramming or horsing the equipment, but if your running the machine a little above idle, I assume the bucket can handle anything the machine can lift. In my experience, a new bucket bending was unheard of, but now I'm hearing that I should not use compact machinery like construction machinery.

jmf

 

[Charlesaf3]

I tend to agree with you that "a little above idle" the bucket should be able to handle anything the machine can lift.

But on the other hand, lightweight 4n1's are probably a bit more delicate, by the nature of the beast.

I think mine might count as construction equipment. But once again, there's a tradeoff - at 800+ pounds for the bucket alone, it wouldn't leave much for cargo normally.

 

[Charlesaf3]

Here are some pics of details I could see. I've still got the bucket filled so can't take that one.

The stumps are there for perspective - big oak stumps, the one in the 4n1 is 8 feet tall or so.

Hmm, looking at it the reinforcements are tough to see, I'll take some more tomorrow in decent light.

 

[Redbug]

IslandTractor,
I have a WR Long 4in1 and have the same problem with the bottom grease zerks and dirt. I use my air compressor nozzle to blow out the dirt out of the protective zerk pipe sleeves before attaching the grease gun. That's the easiest and fastest way to get the dirt out.

 

[IslandTractor]

IslandTractor,
I have a WR Long 4in1 and have the same problem with the bottom grease zerks and dirt. I use my air compressor nozzle to blow out the dirt out of the protective zerk pipe sleeves before attaching the grease gun. That's the easiest and fastest way to get the dirt out.

Good idea. I have been using a flat screwdriver and a lot of cursing to clean them out. Sometimes the soil/mud/dirt is so impacted, especially in the protected zerk, that air might not work alone but it would certainly help with final pre grease clean up. Twice I've had to get out the zerk flusher device and at least once or twice I've had to take the zerk nipple off to clean it. I do believe WRLong makes great products but I just don't understand why they chose to put the zerks in the obviously exposed areas.

 

[Charlesaf3]

What is a zerk flusher? Sounds like something I should own... And where are the WR Long Zerks? I have the sinking suspicion mine might be in the same place

 

[Rara Avis]

Buzzard Gulch Catalog H 2005

Page 72...

 

[IslandTractor]

What is a zerk flusher?

As Paul pointed to on page 72 the flusher is model KD416. I don't know what the official name is but flusher is a pretty accurate description. I actually got mine from Northern Tools I think but it looks the same. Basic idea is that there is a zerk fitting attached to a cylinder that has a piston in it. you remove the piston, fill the cylinder with light oil then replace the piston, put the fitting on the stuck zerk then wham the piston end with a hammer. Squirts the light oil through the zerk and drives out dried up grease and dirt. Works pretty well but is kinda messy sometimes. Easier than pulling the zerk off and soaking it solvent etc.

 

[IslandTractor]

More photos of the dumb placement of zerks on the 4n1. On the second photo you can see that if they had moved the zerk 90 degrees it would not be face down in the dirt every single time you use the bucket but would instead be in back with at least partial protection. There is one other zerk in there that is so buried in dirt I didn't even find it the first time I greased the bucket up.

 

[Charlesaf3]

yep, I think thats where mine is as well.... Maybe its unavoidable?

I haven't had call to use a zerk flusher yet - is it that I'm lucky, or because I use a pneumatic grease gun, not a hand one? Sometime it does labor a bit before the zerk opens up...

 

[IslandTractor]

I haven't had call to use a zerk flusher yet - is it that I'm lucky, or because I use a pneumatic grease gun, not a hand one? Sometime it does labor a bit before the zerk opens up...

Maybe it is your grease gun but I have a Lincoln electric gun which works pretty well unless the zerk is gummed up with dirt or old dried out grease. With all the attachments you have accummulated I'd say you should invest in one. Not big bucks and they do allow you to make a stuck zerk work with a 3 minute fix rather than needing to take it off and clean it out or soak it.