64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt

/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #21  
Good to know. We have so many d*m fools here that won't believe back feeding a welder receptacle is looking for trouble.

the backfeeding itself has no more inherrant danger than any line power on the house grid.

the problem is those fools that don't isolate their house from the rest of the world.
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt
  • Thread Starter
#22  
the backfeeding itself has no more inherrant danger than any line power on the house grid.

the problem is those fools that don't isolate their house from the rest of the world.

Speaking of backfeeds:

My retired electrician-friend told me Hydro guys ran into an unexpected backfeed when servicing an area with solar fields attached. Apparently there's an automatic disconnect for solar arrays if the line goes down, but it only worked on one of the two fields on the line. I don't quite understand the rights of it, but somebody got hit by a backfeed during a power outage from a second adjacent solar panel array.
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #23  
I don't follow the story. I thought Hydo people worked on hydro sites. Why would they be working on public utility lines, or on someone's solar fields? Can you ask your friend to elaborate please.
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #24  
I don't follow the story. I thought Hydo people worked on hydro sites. Why would they be working on public utility lines, or on someone's solar fields? Can you ask your friend to elaborate please.

In Ontario hydro crews are responsible for the lines up to the meter...

Having said that there are local hydro crews and provincial hydro crews responsible for power transmission to substations from generating facilities. These crews could work on the lines to the meter at your house in a rural area
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #26  
There is some good information here. Important to note is that the PTO generator is rated based on PTO RPM's and HP output as previously mentioned. I would suggest that is most important and therefore seems to suggest that Frequency regulation is the goal with an allowance to let the voltage fluctuate within device operational limits.
The electrical power output handling capability of the generator is de-rated based on the power supplying capability of the PTO.
The arguable points brought up are based on the unknown of electrical reactance of the load(s) (since they are AC) and if they are net reactive (most likely), net neutral (highly unlikely), or net capacitive (less likely) and to what extent they are reactive.

The most important point brought up by far is the advice to isolate the generator output from the rest of the world. Failure to do so can lead to a catastrophe. Utility suppliers synchronize to the grid frequency prior to putting a generator on line. Failure to do so can launch the rotor through the side of a building from what I have been told.
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #28  
The bad news is the transformers used everyday to step down voltage from some high voltage I.E. 14500 to 240/120 work backward. some poor lineman, working in bad weather can get his last surprise. Have it installed by a competent electrician. Don't jury rig. I once did. I was in the sugar house, generator power failed briefly, utility power came on. A friend not knowing the sequence came along and wanted to be helpful. Nobody got hurt, but that was luck not good decisions.
As to voltage and frequency, we routinely save energy with inverter motor drives, or frequency drives. These convert single or three phase to DC single phase then convert it back to three phase at any voltage or frequency we choose. There is engineering involved. Then it is monitored to avoid heating, over speed, under speed, and stalling. Most motors are meant to run at a speed determined by frequency, the number of poles. Synchronous speed for a 60 cycle two pole motor would be 3600 RPM, A 4 pole 1800. At no load they will run close to this speed. At full load you will see considerable slip, hence the nameplate common of 1750 or 3450. Varying frequency wouldn't harm a motor at no load, does speeding it up mean more torque load? Will it slow it down and not produce enough torque to do the job. Any energy sent to a motor must do work or produce heat. I would strive to maintain design voltage and frequency
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #29  
40 years ago my instructor in electrical school talked of his navy experience. In the day multiple diesel generators would be synchronized to run in tandem. They used a synchroscope, a device like a clock face, a single hand would rotate clockwise or counter clockwise to indicate the timing of two sources of power. As the hand approached the 12 o clock position you would manually close a switch. once on line load would self maintain synchronicity. Sailors being young and stupid would intentionally close the switch at the wrong time, the violence would shake the entire ship.
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #30  
40 years ago my instructor in electrical school talked of his navy experience. In the day multiple diesel generators would be synchronized to run in tandem. They used a synchroscope, a device like a clock face, a single hand would rotate clockwise or counter clockwise to indicate the timing of two sources of power. As the hand approached the 12 o clock position you would manually close a switch. once on line load would self maintain synchronicity. Sailors being young and stupid would intentionally close the switch at the wrong time, the violence would shake the entire ship.

Last I saw a synchronization control, it had flashing lights to let you know you were within the bandwidth to switch. This was within the last ten years. I did not ever actually see one switch, just saw the control. I have no clue what happens if you are not within that bandwidth excepting "stories". No video that I am aware of - just rumor of results. I have to believe that something bad can happen or the controls would not exist. I am sure that PTO generators do not have synchro switch meters/controls or someone would have already mentioned that. I also know that all of the industrial facilities that I visit have switch gear to isolate their standby generators from the utility supply when engaged.
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #31  
The bad news is the transformers used everyday to step down voltage from some high voltage I.E. 14500 to 240/120 work backward. some poor lineman, working in bad weather can get his last surprise. Have it installed by a competent electrician. Don't jury rig. I once did. I was in the sugar house, generator power failed briefly, utility power came on. A friend not knowing the sequence came along and wanted to be helpful. Nobody got hurt, but that was luck not good decisions.
As to voltage and frequency, we routinely save energy with inverter motor drives, or frequency drives. These convert single or three phase to DC single phase then convert it back to three phase at any voltage or frequency we choose. There is engineering involved. Then it is monitored to avoid heating, over speed, under speed, and stalling. Most motors are meant to run at a speed determined by frequency, the number of poles. Synchronous speed for a 60 cycle two pole motor would be 3600 RPM, A 4 pole 1800. At no load they will run close to this speed. At full load you will see considerable slip, hence the nameplate common of 1750 or 3450. Varying frequency wouldn't harm a motor at no load, does speeding it up mean more torque load? Will it slow it down and not produce enough torque to do the job. Any energy sent to a motor must do work or produce heat. I would strive to maintain design voltage and frequency

The above described warnings sould be heeded. The comments concerning energy savings are worth note. There has been a move toward load design engineering efficency as opposed to capacitor bank load switching to balance total plant load for efficiency. For more insight you may want to research reactive AC "tank circuit" explainations. Avoid the claims about perpetual energy conversation concerning tank circuits unless it is described as theoretical.

Tesla researched and found that 60Hz, 240VAC worked best from an electro-mechanical/efficiency perspective from what I have been told. I can only suggest that this has something to do with the natural emf generated by our planet being, basically, a massive generator and its basic frequency and a compromise voltage. I am certain that statement will generate additional comment/arguement.

However, for us who only want to power our homes for a short period of time during crisis, we have to remember a few things.

1. Electric lights are not necessary. You can easily have any sort of oil, gas, or wax lamp. Electric lights, if deemed necessary, do not care too much about voltage levels or voltage frequency.
2. Water is essentual - it does not have to be "pure" but you don't want it to make you sick. If you have a well, you want to power the pump if it is electric.
3. Refrigeration is only necessary if it is hot outside and you have stores of perishable food. You can live on canned food. Canned food manufacturers have best use dates on their goods. This is not, necessarily, "don't use beyond" dates. Use your brain based on the content and storage conditions.
4. You have to prepare to be able to heat your dwelling in some manner. I would suggest some manner other than electricity. Oil based heaters can be used with adequate ventilation if you do not have a fireplace and a supply of other wood based combustibles.
5. It is easier and safer to store a large quantity of #2 fuel or Kerosene than it is to store Gasoline. Therefore, it is better to have a diesel fueled generator than a gasoline generator. This was validated during Hurricane Sandy. Locals who had, or obtained, gasoline powered generators could not get gasoline to fuel them. Oil stores for long periods of time without significant degradation compared to gasoline and diesel engines are generally more tolerant of fuel quality variances.

Just my opinions.
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #32  
Tesla gets too much credit. He invented everything else. 120/240 residential power was a compromise. For many uses high voltage would work better. in its interface with humans things tend to go wrong more often, and more severely with high voltage. Low voltage would require huge wires and equipment to do the same job. If the industry hadn't standardized, you couldn't go to walmart, buy a electric heater, take it home and burn your house down.
Propane is fast becoming the fuel of choice for generators from household to industrial sizes. It stores for long periods, won't ruin your engine like the adulterated gasoline, and engines aren't as expensive to build as diesel.
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #34  
I wonder how well backfeeding works when one is not isolated from the incoming power line. How well can your generator supply power to all of your neighbors?

Of course I agree that it is recklessly dangerous to do so, or to take a risk of it happening, but I suspect it won't last long if the break is some distance away and you would be feeding dozens or hundreds of homes.
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #35  
Did you also miss the welder receptacle ?

and I'm wondering how that makes much difference... what type of welder recep? 4 wire?

isolation is the issue....
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #36  
I wonder how well backfeeding works when one is not isolated from the incoming power line. How well can your generator supply power to all of your neighbors?

Of course I agree that it is recklessly dangerous to do so, or to take a risk of it happening, but I suspect it won't last long if the break is some distance away and you would be feeding dozens or hundreds of homes.

that one always makes me wonder too.

everyone hears the info about be sure not to backfeed the line. but it almost meakes me wonder if someone did backfeed the line. .. their genny would likely shut right down as the other 5 million devices plugged in and on ( reefers.. pumps..e tc.. ) would all wanna use that power.. :)
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #37  
To answer the original question concisely, proper voltage is far more important than proper frequency. Also, since your generator is probably not even outputting a proper sin wave, you meter might not be very accurate at measuring hz.
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #38  
Good to know. We have so many d*m fools here that won't believe back feeding a welder receptacle is looking for trouble.

Don't got no welder but can run the house off a generator without back feeding the service line.:)
 
/ 64 hertz and a Kill-a-Watt #39  
if you backfeed and do not turn off the main house breaker the curcuit breaker on the gen set will trip almost immediately, maybe not fast enough to keep some linesman from getting hurt . I don't really know if any of that backfed current makes it past our individual transformers.

For the purpose of this conversation backfeeding is plugging in a generator to a 220 outlet (via a cord rigged with coresponding male plugs on both ends ) located in a outbuilding and sending current "back" to the main panel located at the service entrance
 
 

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