8 year old hurt

[mboulais]

This thread is headed nowhere fast. I said let's agree to disagree becuase lately there has been plenty of hostility toward anyone who doesn't post advice to strictly follow all mfg safety guidelines and use all possible safety devices. I shared honestly what I do and it is now just a big free for all of bashing my practices.

Other threads on the safety forum have been started strictly to bash people depicted in photos pulled (without permision, I'm sure) from other sites (mfgr's sites).

And yes I do take offense to the implications about the intellegence of someone who doesn't agree with the overly (IMHO) safety minded folk.

N80-

You keep asking me to defend my position, but you respond with the same rhetoric to everything I put up here. You're approach is not fostering any 2 way dialouge.

Considering I didn't read your profile and didn't go through your old posts other than ones I had recently run across in my normal travels I would say batting 500 is pretty good.

You won't even discuss suspended loads. Do you honestly think there is no safe way to carry an implement under the bucket? I have seen and done enough rigging in industry to safely move anything my 40hp tractor can lift.

You presume your opinion is the only one that should be seen by newbies. (how many years driving tractors before your no longer a newbie?). As long as I am reasonably polite, my views have as much value and right to seen as yours.


Soundguy-

"It's a no-brainer"? - That's not leaving any room for discussion. You couldn't draw a deeper line in the sand with a backhoe!

 

[mboulais]

N80-

You and I must have been writting our posts at the same time. Your last post had a very different tone and very clear reasonable argument in favor of them.

Nice post.

 

[N80]

Considering I didn't read your profile and didn't go through your old posts other than ones I had recently run across in my normal travels I would say batting 500 is pretty good.

Well, seems like predicting yesterday's weather but if it makes you feel good, that's fine with me.

You won't even discuss suspended loads. Do you honestly think there is no safe way to carry an implement under the bucket? I have seen and done enough rigging in industry to safely move anything my 40hp tractor can lift.

I didn't know we were discussing suspended loads....or even what you mean by that. And I think that is part of the problem. You're assuming that I'm an OSHA boy scout. I'm not. I think there are plenty of reasonable ways to take calculated risk and I've said so in plenty of other posts. I've been discussing ROPS, seatbelts and seat switches. That's all. If you want to talk about the risks vs benefits of other activities, that's fine. I suspect there are some things I do that might seem dangerous to you. Again, I'm not a safety **** no matter how hard you try to paint me that way.

You presume your opinion is the only one that should be seen by newbies.

I don't presume that at all and recent posts would indicate that I'm not the only who thinks my position on this is at least a bit more reasonable. There may be folks who agree with you but won't post for fear of being cast as unsafe lunatics. But is that any worse than being cast as a Safety Nut? And the simple truth is that some opinions are more sound than others.

(how many years driving tractors before your no longer a newbie?).

Good question, I don't know! Am I no longer a newbie? Or will it take another year or two before I graduate to Weekend Warrior?

As long as I am reasonably polite, my views have as much value and right to seen as yours.

While I value civil conversations I totally disagree with that idea. I could very politely recommend riding the kids around on the mower deck while I was bush hogging. Anyone who didn't rudely call me an idiot, would be just as, well, just as bad.

 

[N80]

N80-

You and I must have been writting our posts at the same time. Your last post had a very different tone and very clear reasonable argument in favor of them.

Nice post.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. If its the PTO shield I was being sarcastic. I leave mine on and in place even though I find it to be a great nuisance. My point was: Why would the very same person leave the annoying PTO shield in place but drive around with the ROPS folded down. It simply does not compute.

 

[mboulais]

I was refering to this:

I guess one of the reasons I get worked up about this is that after two years of active 'tractoring' I've gotten pretty proficient regarding the things that my tractor will do. And I am alert. I do try to plan my jobs. But my property and my tasks are widely varied. And there have been those times, those episodes where you get that unexpected butt pucker and after that tingling sensation and cold sweat go away you think how glad you are that you had a back up (Rops, seatbelt, whatever.) Just the other day I was moving brush and logs around on some very uneven ground (which is all I have). All of a sudden, the right rear dug up a half buried log or chunk of wood which rolled up under the tire at the same time the left front dropped into a little low place. In retrospect I don't think the tractor would have rolled, but at the moment the right rear came up and the left front went down...I sure thought it was going to roll. I dropped the FEL and steered left and it was fine. But it scared me. If that kind of thing can happen...and it can...then I want those simple safety features. Was I being careless? I don't think so but maybe. Is anyone immune from occasional lapses?

But, what cinches it for me is that I'm not the only one who runs my tractor. My 16 year old son runs it too and it won't be long before my 14 year old daughter drives it. I want them as safe as possible and any kid who sees his Dad using unsafe practices is going to think they are okay. So even if I thought all this stuff was a nuisance and I didn't really need them; I'd still use them because I wouldn't want my son copying my bad habits.

I did like it, it was a well written post.

As far as the PTO shield goes, I was messin' with you. You started with "PTO shields are for sissies". The PTO guard is still on because that is a risk I am not comfortable with. My PHD recently ended up short part of the shaft guard and the auger guard after a long and frustrating battle to change an auger. I fully intend to reinstall both due to the risk of shear bolts coming flying (although some modifications are in order on the auger guard).


As far as driving around with ROPS down, I don't do it to prove a point or for any other reason than It got folded to put the tractor in the garage a few times and never got put back up. Frankly it's a PITA to put back up and I probably won't do it until I need the Headlights again. Once up, it will likely stay up for the same reason. The only real problem with it being up is in close quarters in the woods.

I don't feel at all uncomfortable working without a seatbelt, it comes down to each persons comfort level. I also understand that not wearing the seatbelt negates the effectiveness of the ROPS. I am comfortable with those risks, not ignorant of the risks.

As far as suspended loads goes, you refered to my leaning forward on my tractor to check a suspended load or to better see what is going under the tractor while bush hoggin' is inherently unsafe. I guess I was the one assuming there, I assumed you meant the suspended load was unsafe.

The start of this was my dislike for operator presence switches. You say yours won't prevent you from starting your tractor? Any I've seen on riding lawn mowers did. I tried fixing one several times on a rider before tearing it out by the roots. If it kills a running tractor when you get out of the seat, I think I prevent you from starting your tractor without your seat firmly planted in your seat. All mechanical things fail eventually, all electrical things fail faster. an electrical switch that prevents you from starting a machine will eventually fail, and they are designed to fail open (for safety). And when a tractor doesn't start the safety circuit won't be the first thing that pops into the mind of the person troubleshooting it at the start of a weekend that is all too short with an all too long list of chores. Frustration I don't need.

I don't now when a person is no longer a newbie. I think it happens just before we're too old to run a tractor.

While I value civil conversations I totally disagree with that idea. I could very politely recommend riding the kids around on the mower deck while I was bush hogging. Anyone who didn't rudely call me an idiot, would be just as, well, just as bad.

You are right, someone who didn't post their opposing view might be just as bad, but someone who called you an idiot is just spoiling for a fight. I have on occassion urged safety on here, I am in fact quite experienced with enforcing industrial safety rules and providing assesments of lock out / tag out / zero energy requirements. My safety advice usually has to do with eliminating or at least being aware of potential dangers with methods of getting a job done, such as getting a stuck tractor out.

 

[N80]

The start of this was my dislike for operator presence switches. You say yours won't prevent you from starting your tractor? Any I've seen on riding lawn mowers did. I tried fixing one several times on a rider before tearing it out by the roots. If it kills a running tractor when you get out of the seat, I think I prevent you from starting your tractor without your seat firmly planted in your seat.

Mine works like this, if the tractor is in gear and you stand up (or fall off) it stops the tractor. But, if the tractor is in neutral you can start it without being in the seat. Likewise, with the tractor in neutral you can get off of the tractor with the engine running and from the ground you can engage the PTO so that you can run a pump or other stationary PTO driven implement. The only thing that that switch does that ever causes the tiniest problem is if you want to stand up and look around while the tractor is in motion. I decided I did not want to do that anyway so it the switch does not ever bother me.

All mechanical things fail eventually, all electrical things fail faster.

All things do fail but I don't think that there is any general advantage of the mechanical vs electrical components in a modern tractor. If that were true there are a lot more complicated electrical things that will go south before my seat switch. And if the seat switch does go, it would take all of a minute to override it.

 

[horse7]

It's not that I don't like ROPS, I just don't think they are the be-all, end-all of tractor safety. ROPS have away of catching on overhead obstructions and can in fact roll over a tractor becuase of it. I have caught tree branches. I know a guy at work that took the ROPS off his zero turn mower after a couple near misses in the first two times out with it. I am not removing mine, I like it for the lights mounted above my head.

I find it pretty easy to forget how high the ROPS sticks up, especially when too many other things are happening on the ground (lateral slope, ground hog holes, will the shiny new 96" hog clear both tree trunks )-- and having used a ROPSless MF1040 and being able to duck under pretty much anything that could clear the MF1040 nose, the 'duck and it will go by' habit is a bit ingrained.

Be putting a FOPS on later this year, partly to keep the rain off, partly so I know where the ROPS really is, and partly so the deadfalls hit the FOPS and not something more valuable.

(and I personally know a pretty smart guy in KY who insists that a seatbelt is dangerous, a ROPS will impede him from jumping off the tractor on the uphill side (not to speak of a seatbelt!), and he mostly stands up when driving a tractor (to more easily see over the nose of his ancient tractor, but also to be able to jump off quicker I guess). At least he knows to jump off on the uphill side if the tractor rolls over-- he has reminded me to remember that several times! )

 

[N80]

I find it pretty easy to forget how high the ROPS sticks up, especially when too many other things are happening on the ground (lateral slope, ground hog holes,

That is exactly why I want and need a ROPS. When there are too many other things happening it becomes easy for any type of accident to happen. As I've contended before, if I get so busy that I forget the ROPS that is just inches behind my head, I can forget other things as well.

the 'duck and it will go by' habit is a bit ingrained.

Me too. Never with a branch big enough to hurt anything though. Again, (and again and again) if I (you, we, who ever) can make that mistake, we could just as easily make a mistake that could lead to a rollover.

(and I personally know a pretty smart guy in KY who insists that a seatbelt is dangerous, a ROPS will impede him from jumping off the tractor on the uphill side (not to speak of a seatbelt!)

I know some presumably smart people who smoke cigarettes and don't wear their car seatbelts too! I think that anyone who thinks they can clear the platform of a tipping tractor needs to try doing the same thing from a tractor sitting perfectly still. Sit comfortably in the seat, one foot on the gas, one poised above the clutch and try leaping out of the seat in such a way that they clear the tractor. Not only is is hard, it might be impossible. Now add forward and tipping motion and the fact that you would be jumping against the direction that the tipping machine is throwing you...well, you know the punch line.

You'd certainly be in better shape to jump clear if you were standing up. But if you are standing up because you think the odds are high that you are going to have to jump off a tipping tractor, then you have your priorities waaay out of order.

But, in the end, your smart friend is right. If you have no ROPS, do not wear the seatbelt because if it does tip, your only hope is to leap clear. And I'm sure it has been done, possibly by people on this site. But I bet most of them wouldn't bet their life on it a second time.

My tractor has a nice flat platform, but it also has way too many grabby things to ever hope to jump clear of.

 

[riptides]

........
But, in the end, your smart friend is right. If you have no ROPS, do not wear the seatbelt because if it does tip, your only hope is to leap clear. And I'm sure it has been done, possibly by people on this site. But I bet most of them wouldn't bet their life on it a second time......

Not saying you believe it, do it, or agree with it N80 but quite a lot of people think they can jump and everything will be fine.

The leap clear mentality *might* work *some* of the time.

Well in my case, my slow moving Farmall got a piece of me.

Roll Over

-Mike Z.

 

[6sunset6]

In an earlier time I had a smaller tractor 18hp gas with a bucket. one of those Ingersol Rand things. No Rops and no seatbelt. I had the bucket up about 5ft high and dropped the front wheel off about a 3" step. Over it went ,me with it. It was so fast I had no idea what happened. Maybe some people can jump but I would rather have a seatbelt and a ROPS. Oh Yeah I got up and walked away from it. Small machine I guess.