861 diesel problems

[MitchellB]

Took the (new to me) 861 out finish mowing yesterday afternoon. Seemed to do good for about an hour. I wasn't even running at full PTO speed on the tach, but about 3/4 (needle straight up) mowing in third gear. I had just finished one small field and had moved to the other portion. Grass was about two weeks since I had mowed last, so thick in places, but nothing that should strain it much. I heard something clank and thought at first the mower had hit something as the engine seemed to bog down. I quickly hit the clutch and took the PTO lever out of engagement and noticed the RPM/Tach had stopped working altogether. The engine seemed to be out of time struggling to run. I limped her back to the shed, although I wasn't sure she'd make or if I should even try. She was beginning to run hot when I shut her down and would occasionally spit out flecks of red hot carbon specks from the exhaust stack just before I got under the shed. My first guess is the hydraulic pump that the RPM cable connects to, but I'm new to diesels, so I'm not sure really what happened. I hope this new 55 year old tractor didn't just die a major death on me. Any advice on where to start or what happened?

Undid the tach cable and it does not appear damaged and turns freely in my fingers. Tried cranking the engine today, but would not fire up. I tried engaging lift (lever up) to see if spinning the engine with the starter would raise my mower up off the ground, but it did not move either. So maybe I have two problems that began at the same instance? Bad pump? (by the way I changed the hydraulic fluid but never used the lift much running the mower yesterday) But why would a bad pump affect the engine? Pull the pump to inspect the gears first? Maybe I need to keep my 8N?

 

[boggen]

Took the (new to me) 861 out finish mowing yesterday afternoon. Seemed to do good for about an hour. I wasn't even running at full PTO speed on the tach, but about 3/4 (needle straight up) mowing in third gear. I had just finished one small field and had moved to the other portion. Grass was about two weeks since I had mowed last, so thick in places, but nothing that should strain it much. I heard something clank and thought at first the mower had hit something as the engine seemed to bog down. I quickly hit the clutch and took the PTO lever out of engagement and noticed the RPM/Tach had stopped working altogether. The engine seemed to be out of time struggling to run. I limped her back to the shed, although I wasn't sure she'd make or if I should even try. She was beginning to run hot when I shut her down and would occasionally spit out flecks of red hot carbon specks from the exhaust stack just before I got under the shed. My first guess is the hydraulic pump that the RPM cable connects to, but I'm new to diesels, so I'm not sure really what happened. I hope this new 55 year old tractor didn't just die a major death on me. Any advice on where to start or what happened?

Undid the tach cable and it does not appear damaged and turns freely in my fingers. Tried cranking the engine today, but would not fire up. I tried engaging lift (lever up) to see if spinning the engine with the starter would raise my mower up off the ground, but it did not move either. So maybe I have two problems that began at the same instance? Bad pump? (by the way I changed the hydraulic fluid but never used the lift much running the mower yesterday) But why would a bad pump affect the engine? Pull the pump to inspect the gears first? Maybe I need to keep my 8N?

basic data
TractorData.com Ford Powermaster 861 tractor information
part diagrams and parts numbers
Official New Holland Online Parts Store and Online Parts Catalog for New Holland and Ford Tractors.

the way you describe things, it sounds like engine trouble vs hydraulic trouble.

there better knowledgeable folks than i here on the forums....so will end here...

 

[wmonroe]

Was it making any abnormal smoke (black, or white)? I'm not sure how the injection pump is attached on this model but something sheared and the injection timing is way off. Give us as many details as possible and we can help troubleshoot it, these old diesels are fairly simple.

 

[MitchellB]

I think the answer or source of my problem came to me in a dream last night. After a quick check in my service manual this morning that I just got, this could be a very major fix, as in engine removal to remove cam shaft (if needed). The pump runs off a gear on the rear of the cam shaft. The cam shaft gear runs off a gear in the front. I'm thinking the cam shaft gear, cam shaft or main gear on crank shaft or all three or worse would cause pump, tach and timing problems all to happen at once. I had an old Chevy pickup break a timing chain once and it bent push rods. I may end up doing a total rebuild if I have to split the tractor to pull the engine. I think somebody sold me their problem.

 

[wmonroe]

I would be very surprised if you are having issues with the cam or crankshaft gears. Were you getting any smoke when it was running rough?

 

[Soundguy]

no timeing chain on this model. timing gears. but it's all up front.

injection pump is roosa master and is located where the distribuitor would be on a gasser thus is drive up front.

 

[MitchellB]

I pulled the front cover (over the gears) off yesterday thinking the woodruff key mentioned in the manual that holds in the cam gear in time had sheared allowing the cam gear to spin. I had hopes (being a 1958) that this was the early model listed in the book that is held on by a nut. However this cam gear appears to be the pressed on style with a snap ring retainer that the book says can only be removed by removing engine. Good news seems to be that the gears are not worn or broken and the cam gear and cam shaft appear to be turning together when I crank the starter (marked with grease pencil). A wet surprise was when I removed two of the cover bolts, all my antifreeze began dumping out on the ground, but I was able to catch most of it. I am also unable to get the cover out from between end of crank shaft and pocket shaped front engine mount. That'll be a pain to clean up, gasket and put back together. I'll take some pics this morning that may help.

I'm back to being stumped. I had thought next about pulling off the pump to see if the pump gear on the rear of the cam shaft is turning. Will the pump come off without removing the heavy cast pipe that curves under the engine to transmission reservoir?

The suggestion about removing the valve cover to inspect push rod movement - will the valve cover come off without removing fuel tank? Don't look like there is much clearance there under the diesel lines.

I haven't touch the fuel shut-off since I've had it, because it takes a long flathead screwdriver to turn it. (tight fit between it and valve cover). I haven't seen any "windows" in the block either I never paid attention to the smoke when I tried to crank it yesterday, so there may not have been much coming out. ??? but I know I had the fuel lever on when cranking, even moved it up higher once.

Thanks for the advice. I'll be needing much more.

 

[MitchellB]

Cam gear did not spin on shaft when spun over crank shaft

 

[MitchellB]

gears look fine to me

 

[MitchellB]

not much space between valve cover and fuel lines/tank

 

[MitchellB]

noticed this (seepage) along left side under head. Don't appear to be a problem though.

 

[MitchellB]

seller told me he had recently spent $600 on a fuel pump rebuild. ???

 

[wmonroe]

I still think it is an issue with the fuel injection pump. Could you see the gear for the injection pump? Did it turn normally with the crank and cam gear?

 

[Soundguy]

View attachment 386649
not much space between valve cover and fuel lines/tank

yes, you CAN get the valve cover off. but I would pull the pushrod cover first. see if the lifters are moving and the pushrods ar emoving and not slack

 

[MitchellB]

Took a few days break, but worked on my 861 some today. First I took loose the fuel line from the inlet side of the fuel pump to verify that the fuel filter was not stopped up. Fuel ran out in a steady clear stream. Turning the valve off, I pulled the fuel filter because I wanted to change it anyway. I removed the fuel filter housing because it had rust sediment in the base that I wanted to clean it out. Is that a problem or can I count on the filter stopping it from entering the fuel pump?

I got side engine cover off today. I almost got frustrated enough to pull the fuel pump off too, but I finally managed to force it past the battery box and out. I noticed one rod was loose enough to spin with my finger but depending on valve lash clearance I did not think that too loose to be a major problem. None appeared bent. Turning the engine over they all moved up and down. Nothing seemed wrong just looking at them.

I did have to disconnect the fuel return line to get the cover out and was surprised the fuel continued running out of the return line. I have almost a full tank and lost about a half gallon of fuel before I got the cover out and reconnected the return line to the fuel pump. Is that normal for fuel to flow steady back out of the return line?

I also noticed a steady (every 30 seconds or so) drip out of the inlet side of the fuel pump now that I have the filter housing/line removed. Problem? Would a manual cut off or one way valve placed somewhere near the tank in the return line stop the back flow when the engine is off? Should the pump steady drip at the inlet? Need rebuilding?

I guess my next step is to remove hydraulic pump or should I test it first?

Thanks for all your ideas.

 

[MitchellB]

I checked my book and went back look at that loose push rod. #2 Exhaust seems too loose where I can actually notice some side to side movement at the the top. I have an open/closed valve diagram in my book. I want to use to go back tomorrow and check each push rod more closely. Thunder boomers going off right now so I'm done for today.

 

[MitchellB]

Good news - bad news; and I really don’t like the bad news. Finally figured out my problem. After failing to get the pump to prime, I removed it. Not only is the hydraulic pump gear and pump shaft in bad shape, the drive gear on the cam is missing teeth and spinning freely/wobbling on the camshaft. At the very least a new camshaft, gears and new pump. Might as well rebuild the &^$#$@!!^%!!!! POS while I got it apart. Not a happy camper.

 

[Soundguy]

wow that gear looks bad!

do yourself a favor.. when you repalce it. check the relief...

 

[MitchellB]

Yea, both gears are spinning on the shafts like the shafts or gear centers (or both) are wallowed out and shot. I'm concerned about the block where the rear of the cam shaft rides or the shaft bearing(s). If my camshaft at the rear was moving around (wobbling) that may have caused the engine problems. Where is a good source (of cheaper than New Holland dealer prices) for parts?

 

[Soundguy]

ebay has a ton of parts. once you get the cam out.. let me know.. I know a few guys that part machines.

user rickb used to have a diesel powernaster.. it made a window in the block. not sure if he still has the cam and pump.. but he might. I bought some of the tractor off him a while back.,