861 diesel problems

[MitchellB]

What is the TOB?

 

[Soundguy]

throw out bearing.

always good to replace it anyway.. but in this case.. it's probably damaged anyway.

 

[MitchellB]

TOB Throw Out Bearing. OK, I should have guessed that one. Brain must have seized up. While the surface is not real smooth, the thrust bearing seems to be OK, but I don't know what the surface of a new one would look like. It spins freely and is not loose, so I hope to be able to save that and just put new screws into the clutch fingers.

Got to check on cost. My budget is tiny. While I'd like to do a complete rebuild, mainly I just want to get it up and usable. I took the clutch off today and removed the hydraulic drive gear on the end of the cam that sheared teeth with the pump. The end of the cam looks OK and the block. It did shear off the four 1/4" bolts that held the gear on the cam. I may be able to easy-out the old bolts, or I do have a used cam I bought (for the gear) I can replace it with. I got to hunt up some bolts to mount the engine on my stand and look for new bolts to use on the clutch fingers.

 

[MitchellB]

Danged if New Holland ain't proud of their Ford parts. The little 5/16" x .65" clutch bolt that engages the Release Bearing is $15 each and I needed six of them. When I asked about a new 2-stage clutch for it they wanted $1689!!!!!!!!!!! Scares me to think what shop labor would cost me. I found a new clutch on ebay for $355 that includes a new release bearing, the small bearing and an alignment tool that I ordered a few minutes ago. It's hurting my pocketbook, but I really don't want to split this tractor again anytime soon if I can help it.

I got the engine on a stand today and pulled the oil pan. I don't see anything else damaged inside, but I'd still need to pull more parts and measure be sure it is within specs. I'm still concerned as to what caused my sudden spitting/sputtering overheating engine that occurred right after the hydraulic pump shaft snapped and pump drive gears failed. Any guesses?

Should I pull pistons/rods and measure/check rings and bearings?

Is there a way to check oil pump function before I remove it or after?

 

[Soundguy]

i'd do a compression test before rebuilding, and observe oil pressure too.


PS. NH wants 17$ each for pushrods for those red tigers!

 

[MitchellB]

Made a little more progress today as I replaced the old cam with the new (used) cam and gears. I measured with my China Freight dial calipers comparing the two and one journal lope #1 Exhaust was .025 smaller than the new (used) cam. All the rest were within a couple thousands of being equal so I decided the old cam was the worst of the two and used the new (used) cam and gears. I did pull the tappets first and they seemed OK. My only concern were the stamping on the cams were different. My old cam had (EAF C20 27-J) and the replacement had (EAF C26 19-J) stamped on it. EAF being the only thing on both. I'm not sure what the difference is or what that means, but hence my digging out my calipers to measure and compare before switching.

I also took some measurements of the cylinder bores today and was alarmed that they seem larger than the specs in my book 3.8998 to 3.9018". Mine were extremes of 3.92 - 3.975 with 3.96-7 being about average of 16 different measurements that I took both top and bottom of cylinders. Unfortunately I did not take a compression test before taking the engine apart. I do not have a gauge that will read high enough to test a diesel engine anyway (need to start looking for one I guess).

Should/could I get over sized piston rings for this or does it need have new cylinders pressed in and out? Part of me wants to start putting this back together as is and worry about doing this all over again in a few years, cause I'm not sure I can afford new cylinders too. The cylinder walls appear to be smooth and no signs of ring or leakage damage. This is turning into a money pit. 58 years of wear has taken it's toil in parts I finding, but I'm just not sure how much excess wear these old tractors can stand before failing again.

 

[Soundguy]

i'll defer them diesel engine questions to rickb.

 

[MitchellB]

I got another newbie question. Can the cylinder sleeves be removed without that special puller and how do most folks do it without the special cylinder sleeve puller? My 89 year old father in law says he tried to remove his 2N sleeves years ago with a hammer and punch and ended up busting a hole in his thin cast iron block.

 

[TomSeller]

I got another newbie question. Can the cylinder sleeves be removed without that special puller and how do most folks do it without the special cylinder sleeve puller? My 89 year old father in law says he tried to remove his 2N sleeves years ago with a hammer and punch and ended up busting a hole in his thin cast iron block.

I would not do it without the special tools, including a press when installing the new liners.

 

[Soundguy]

I got another newbie question. Can the cylinder sleeves be removed without that special puller and how do most folks do it without the special cylinder sleeve puller? My 89 year old father in law says he tried to remove his 2N sleeves years ago with a hammer and punch and ended up busting a hole in his thin cast iron block.

the 2n used thin, tin can .040 steel sleeves that you more or les can peel out. using a hammer and punch was? odd? and was why the block was damaged.

kinda like using a hammer to change a head lamp. wrong tool, wrong method.

 

[MitchellB]

I'm really on the fence about what my next step should be. Should I begin putting it all back together and hope for a few more years of service? It's not a daily work tractor, more of a every weekend or two used. Should I re-bore cylinders oversize, buy oversize pistons/rings? Should I buy new sleeves & new standard size rings? Should I pull bearings apart and use plastigage to check them and turn crank if out of specs too? I think I can build a sleeve puller of sorts that may work for me after watching a few U-tube videos, but concerned my ability as a first timer may bring me more problems than I solve. Thanks for all your input about my unexpected project.

 

[Soundguy]

without knowing how it ran before and oil pressure i simply can't advise.

if it starts up ok and has the power you need and oil pressure. i usually let them run till they really need work done. but that's me.

 

[MitchellB]

without knowing how it ran before and oil pressure i simply can't advise.

if it starts up ok and has the power you need and oil pressure. i usually let them run till they really need work done. but that's me.

Yea, I understand. I should have paid more attention to oil pressure and done a compression test before tearing into it. Oil pressure was good for the short time it ran OK and I mowed with it. It was only after the noise of the pump shaft and cam gear destructing that suddenly the tractor seemed to run extremely rough and barely made it the 5-600 feet back to my shed. It was spitting fiery flakes the last few feet and getting hot enough to suddenly smoke the paint off the muffler and exhaust manifold. My replacement temp gauge had yet to arrived (went ahead & installed that today), so not sure how hot it got, but I don't think it was enough to worry about unless I just like pretty paint on my muffler and exhaust manifold. I can't honestly remember now if I checked the oil pressure gauge before shutting it down or not, but I'm trying to tell myself it must have been OK or I would have been alarmed about that too. I did take the oil pump apart somewhat (when I replaced the cam) and the pump gears and shaft seemed fine and seemed to make a sucking sound when spun by hand.

I'm still searching for a good deal in sleeves and if I can get four without much money invested, I may try to change them out. I'm just worried about the way it ran at the end and not sure what caused the rough performance and heating problems. That's the main reason, I'm considering doing more as opposed to beginning to reassemble everything. UPS is supposed to deliver my new clutch tomorrow.

You mentioned checking the pressure relief valve. I been looking in the book I got and online and l can't find where it is? Schematic shows it inline in the pressure line from the hydraulic pump, but where on the actual tractor and how to access it, I have yet to figure out.

 

[Soundguy]

at the back right side of where he trans meets the center section, you will find a plate. that is essentially where hyd oil come sin thru the tubes fromt he tranny and then goes UP to the lift cover.

 

[MitchellB]

Thanks, I'll check that release valve out before I finish. It has been rainy for a few days, so progress has been slow. I did use some plasticgage to measure the bearings, and 2 connecting rod bearing are at their limit, one was over and one was slightly under. So I think I'll just buy all new original size bearings as the crank looks OK.

I've decided to bite the bullet and install new sleeves and rings. I took out the pistons this morning and they all seem to OK, wrist pins seem tight, so the new rings and sleeves should tighten up everything to where it will hopefully last my lifetime, no more than I plan to use it.

However when taking this all apart, I discovered that the main gear on my crank had 1/2 a missing tooth on the backside. I'm surprised I never saw that before. So now I guess now I need to begin looking for a new gear for that. I'm not sure at this point how that is replaced, but surely I won't have to buy an entire new crankshaft.

I guess this ol' girl saw a much harder life than I was lead to believe when I bought her. Makes me much more impressed how my old '49 8N has held up so well for so long and this '58 861 is so worn out. Learning how to do new things are kinda' interesting, but continuing to pour money into this 861 has kicked my pride and pocketbook into the dirt.

 

[Soundguy]

i've done that. IE. if crank was clean just put back in new sets of whatever size bearings were in already, as you KNOW they will fit..e tc.

 

[MitchellB]

I took a hacksaw and file yesterday and shaped out a disk from 3/8" aluminum plate I had to make a sleeve puller end. That took me most of the day except for picking up and moving in a new(used) freezer the wife bought because the old one suddenly died. A lathe would be nice to own, but persistence and elbow grease finally disk made.

Anyway, today I drilled it and attached my long 5/8" threaded rod I had used before to pull some stuff on heavy truck trailers suspensions and could not break loose the first cylinder sleeve I tried. I did not want to tighten it much more because I did not want to strip the threads. but I got to figure out someway to get it to break loose. Maybe heat? My daddy in law was telling me about how where he used to work (over 30 years ago) they would pack stuff in dry ice overnight and that would shrink new parts enough that they would drop into place without any need to use any pullers or hammering?????? Don't know I could make the reverse of that would work by filling the old cylinder sleeve up with crushed ice from my freezer and hope it shrinks it enough to break the old sleeve loose from the wall? Probably not cold enough though. I'll let it sit overnight with tension on it the puller and fiddle with it some more tomorrow.

Also choked down a big lump in my throat and ordered $400 more worth of new parts (Davis Tractor in Alabama) that I hope will be enough to finish this up; sleeves, bearings, rings and a gear.

 

[TomSeller]

My daddy in law was telling me about how where he used to work (over 30 years ago) they would pack stuff in dry ice overnight and that would shrink new parts enough that they would drop into place without any need to use any pullers or hammering??????.

Some people freeze the liners to shrink them and also preheat the block to expand it. I have heard of light bulbs dangled in the block cylinders to warm them up. My concern with freezing the liners would be that they would attract condensation and you could trap water between the block and the liner. They are also quite thin and are going to get back to room temp quite fast. Getting the block good and warm shouldn't hurt anything since you are looking for a temperature difference between the two. I would not be "hammering" anything in, you likely would damage the liners. I had a machine shop press my last set in.

 

[Soundguy]

you can buy dry ice at publix in many areas. i doubt heat will help you pull them. the engine gets pretty hot when running and they don't get loose.

is that aluminum plate what is threaded? or is there a nut under it?

 

[MitchellB]

you can buy dry ice at publix in many areas. i doubt heat will help you pull them. the engine gets pretty hot when running and they don't get loose.

is that aluminum plate what is threaded? or is there a nut under it?

Yea it is aluminum, I cut it from a piece of 3/8" x 4" flatbar I had laying around. Spent most of a day measuring, cutting with my hacksaw and filing to get it to fit with a little lip edge to center it in the bore. Drilled it out for a long 5/8" threaded rod I had with a large nut and steel washer behind it. I may have to back it up with a thick piece of steel to keep the aluminum from folding under pressure, but even now it is almost as tight as I dare go cranking down the top nut with my wrench with no sign of it giving or bending. I don't want to strip threads in the nut or rod, but it is all under pressure right now, but I hope that if I can ever get the sleeve to break free just a little, then I can wrench it on out all the way with the nut/rod/cap setup I've made. It has been raining all day today and I haven't been out side to work on it any. But thinking about just filling up the cylinder bore with ice from the freezer and waiting and see if it shrinks it enough to pop up a little breaking it free.

I had to look up Publix and those stores are not around NC that I know of. I'll have to look for a source of dry ice. I've never messed with that stuff before, so I'll be learning about that if I fail with my crushed ice idea.