8N Replacement

[SDT]

Would you know the difference between a Sherman and Howard unit?

I see some older Fords with Sherman and others advertise Howard...

The Sherman is an auxiliary transmission mounted in front of the main transmission. Accordingly, it affects PTO speed as well as traction speed. Sherman transmissions were available as OD only (common), UD only (very rare), combination UD/direct/OD (not uncommon), and reverser (usually found on industrial and light industrial tractors. Most Sherman transmissions found on late 8N and subsequent Ford tractors are combination units.

The Howard is an auxiliary transmission mounted behind the main transmission intended to slow ground speed sufficiently to allow one to use a PTO driven roto tiller with the highly geared 8N. The Howard does not affect PTO speed. The Howard slows ground speed significantly but is not intended for heavy loads. Many/most Howard transmissions have been damaged due to overloading the rather thin straight cut gears.

Hupp also made auxiliary transmissions for 8N tractors.

Below is a great resource for information about 8/2/8N Ford tractors:

N-Series Discussion Forum

Dean

 

[ultrarunner]

Thank you for the link and explanation...

I'm looking at a project 740 that has a Howard... the owner's father bought it new and said the later Howard transmissions are much more robust than the older version... would this be a fair statement?

 

[SDT]

Thank you for the link and explanation...

I'm looking at a project 740 that has a Howard... the owner's father bought it new and said the later Howard transmissions are much more robust than the older version... would this be a fair statement?

Yes, changes were made over the model run to improve durability, but even the later Howard transmissions are not intended for heavy drawbar loads.

Interesting tractor. Ford 740 tractors are uncommon and few Howard transmissions were installed after the 8N and NAA (53-54) tractors. A 740 with a Howard is quite unusual.

Here's another good site for antique tractor enthusiasts:

Antique Tractors - Antique Tractor Resource Page

You will find both 9/2/8N and Ford forums. The Ford forum is for vintage Ford tractors produced after the 8N.

Dean

 

[CADplans]

After I purchased my JD 4105, I was amazed how many specs were the duplicate of the Ford 8N,,,

wheelbase, width, tire height,, not HP or transmission, or lack of power steering,, :laughing:

I swear that the designer was using the 8N as the model,, the 8N was successful for some reason,,,

If you like the 8N, but, want more HP, consider something like my JD 4105,,,

 

[tderrick]

During 1998 offroad engine regulations reducing emissions were structured as a 3-tiered progression. Offroad regulations use the metric system of units, with regulatory limits expressed in grams of pollutant per kWh. Examples of regulated applications include farm tractors, excavators, bulldozers, wheel loaders, backhoe loaders, road graders, diesel lawn tractors, logging equipment, portable generators, skid steer loaders and forklifts.

Each tier involved a phase-in (by engine power) over several years.
Tier 1 standards phased-in from 1996 to 2000.
Tier 2 standards phased-in from 2001 to 2006.
Tier 3 standards phased-in from 2006 to 2008 (Tier 3 standards applied only for engines from 37-560 kW).

Very stringent Tier 4 emission standards, phased-in from 2008 through 2015, require substantial reductions of Particulate Matter above 19 kW power output.


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Every tractor brand includes a model in the 2,600 pound to 2,900 pound (bare tractor) range with 100 cubic inch/24 horsepower engine. Tractors under 19 kW ( 19 KW = 25.4794-horsepower) are presently exempt from stringent Tier IV emission controls which abruptly increase a tractor's cost some $2,000 above the 19 kW power demarcation.

In Kubota's product line this is the model L2501.



L3301 and L2501 are essentially the same tractor. L3301 has increased power and mandatory Tier IV emission controls.

Does this mean the 2501 has no emission hardware on it?

Thx for the detailed info... it's a big help trying to make this decision... it's certainly between the 2501 and 3301

 

[tderrick]

I purchased a nice used Kubota L2900 30hp diesel. No comparison in power, though my old Ford is a little tired. I figured a well cared for used tractor would likely outlast me and my uses for it and I don't want any part of emission systems or fancy electronic control systems. In that way the old Ford and the 20 year old Kubota are very similar!

Yes... I am concerned about the emission system as well. This will be my last tractor and i don't want to be jacking w old emission systems
when I'm 80 years old and broken down in the pasture...lol

 

[SDT]

Yes... I am concerned about the emission system as well. This will be my last tractor and i don't want to be jacking w old emission systems
when I'm 80 years old and broken down in the pasture...lol

Conditions are currently better than they have ever been for a return to sanity.

Stay tuned.

SDT

 

[tderrick]

Amazing just how many old tractors and especially 65+ year old Ford Tractors there are still earning their keep...

A real tribute to honest engineering and American Quality...

I have a soft spot for antique iron... cars, tractors, hit and miss engines... etc.

Are those upgrading keeping or selling the old iron?

I will be keeping both my 8n and 640 red tiger ... cold dead fingers... lol

 

[tderrick]

My 52 8N is mechanically in great shape, motor must have been rebuilt in the past because it doesn稚 burn a drop of oil. Hydraulic pump was rebuilt so it lifts my 620lb bush hog like nothin. It痴 been converted to 12V and completely rewired. All the lights and gauges work.

When I get the new tractor I値l probably have to sell it because I don稚 have room in the barn for two tractors plus all the implements.

My hydraulic pump is getting weak, also. How much did it cost you for the rebuild?

 

[SDT]

My hydraulic pump is getting weak, also. How much did it cost you for the rebuild?

Are you sure it's the pump?

Could be other issues.

Go to the N board for advise. I'm an expert on these systems but don't want to hijack this thread any more than already done.

If you do decide to rebuild yours, beware of aftermarket parts. I avoid aftermarket parts like the plague due to far too many bad experiences.

SDT

 

[tderrick]

Are you sure it's the pump?

Could be other issues.

Go to the N board for advise. I'm an expert on these systems but don't want to hijack this thread any more than already done.

If you do decide to rebuild yours, beware of aftermarket parts. I avoid aftermarket parts like the plague due to far too many bad experiences.

SDT

No, I'm not sure it's the pump.... I'll post the search / post the question on the N board...thx

 

[Fallon]

Does this mean the 2501 has no emission hardware on it?

Thx for the detailed info... it's a big help trying to make this decision... it's certainly between the 2501 and 3301

Correct. It's basically a tweaked L3200 (32hp). They played with the numbers to get it below the 25hp limit where you need emissions equipment. I hear they did a poor job often resulting I'm a more powerful machine than expected. It develops power at a lower RPM than the rest of the Ls.

It's a little low on power, but not to bad. A really good compromise for those wanting a bigger machine without emissions stuff.

 

[PaulL2]

If you're looking to avoid emissions equipment, and for your use, I'd be tempted to buy an older tractor rather than the L2501. They are a larger displacement motor that has been detuned, but I've seen no information on how to "retune" them to get the HP they're capable of. They're clearly a good tractor and you probably get a generous 25 HP, but it's still not going to be as many HP as you're used to.

 

[jeff9366]

Does this mean the 2501 has no emission hardware on it?

Thx for the detailed info... it's a big help trying to make this decision... it's certainly between the 2501 and 3301

Kubota L2501 meets Tier II emission standards. I do not know what is involved in meeting Tier II standards in 2018.
L2501 does not have a diesel particulate filter.

 

[majorwager]

The 2501 could not be sold as a new tractor in 2018 w/o meeting tier 4 final standards. Believe tier 2 diesel emission regulations could be met still employing mechanical fuel pump, but engine must be direct injection and operate on low sulfur (500 ppm) or ultra low sulfur (50 ppm) fuel.

My MX requires only low sulfur, however practically impossible to find diesel w/ sulfer content above the ultra level.

 

[Tractorable]

I’m considering replacing my 8N with a Kubota L3560 and when comparing the specs between the two, they’re almost identical dimensionally except for height and weight. Exact same length (115in), wheelbase (70in vs 71in), and width (64in with R1’s).

I often said to myself on the farm how much I appreciate the size of the 8N, not too big and not too small. I’d expect the L3560 to be 10x better though with the 4wd, twice the weight with the loader, and 10 extra diesel powered horses.

 

[jeff9366]

It is the 'Grand L' HST/PLUS transmission that will most impress you.

 

[PaulL2]

The 2501 could not be sold as a new tractor in 2018 w/o meeting tier 4 final standards.

Yes, it absolutely meets tier 4 final standards. But those standards require a different level of emissions for tractors over 25 horsepower. So yes, it's compliant with the standards, and no, it doesn't have the same emissions controls as the larger tractors (the 3301 for example). This can be seen at this link Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines, in table 2 a bit over half way down the page. Tractors 11-25 HP can emit 6.6 grams of CO per kWh, where tractors 25-50 HP can emit 5.5. For nitrogen oxide, 11-25HP can emit 7.5 g/kWh, 25-50HP only 4.7g/kWh. Particulates look to be the biggest difference, 11-25HP can have .3g/kWh, 25-50HP must be 0.03 g/kWh, so ten times less.

Bottom line is that a tractor in the 11-25HP class generally doesn't need a DPF to meet Tier 4, and a tractor in the 25+class generally does.

So, you need to either buy a tractor 25HP or less, or buy a tractor 25-50HP with a build date before 2013-ish.

In a perfect world you'd be able to buy an L2501 and then do some aftermarket tuning to produce more power. Presumably that's illegal or discouraged though.

 

[jeff9366]

Kubota L2501 meets Tier II emission standards. I do not know what is involved in meeting Tier II standards in 2018.
L2501 does not have a diesel particulate filter.

Tier 3 standards phased-in from 2006 to 2008 (Tier 3 standards applied only for engines from 37-560 kW).

Very stringent Tier 4 emission standards, phased-in from 2008 through 2015, require substantial reductions of Particulate Matter above 19 kW power output.


Every tractor brand includes a model in the 2,600 pound to 2,900 pound (bare tractor) range with 100 cubic inch/24 horsepower engine. Tractors under 19 kW ( 19 KW = 25.4794-horsepower) are presently exempt from stringent Tier IV emission controls which abruptly increase a tractor's cost some $2,000 above the 19 kW power demarcation.

In kubota's product line this is the model L2501, which meets Tier II emission standards.

Neither Tier III nor Tier IV emission standards apply to engines producing under 19 kw engine power output.

 

[PaulL2]

Neither Tier III nor Tier IV emission standards apply to engines producing under 19kw engine power output.

Per my link above, I think strictly speaking Tier IV emission standards do apply to engines producing under 19kw (25hp), but they require mostly the same level of emissions as Tier II did - i.e. they didn't tighten the requirements for tractors under 19kw as much in Tier IV as they did for all tractors above 19kw. The CO and NOx levels requirements are the same in Tier II and IV for <19kw, the particulates reduced from 0.8 to 0.4, but not to anywhere near the 0.03 needed above 19kw.

I think this is what leads to endless discussions about Tier IV v's Tier II, and people talking at cross purposes. Technically the L2501 is subject to Tier IV, and complies with Tier IV. But the requirements of Tier IV are way less for a tractor under 19kw.