advice on a dozer plz

[rusty0007]

I'm new to the forum, but I've been reading and reading posts trying to learn as much as I can from you guys, thanks.

Like so many, I find myself a victim of a really bad logging experience. I said that as politely as I could. heh. Its a pretty large job as far as time, it would take quite a while to clean it all up. Renting a dozer, with the weather off and on like it will be for the next few months, doesn't sound cost effective. My time too, its not completely dedicated to dozing all day. Anyway, I've found what I THINK might be a good dozer for me. Its a 1987 JD 450E. Its been owned by a fella that bought it a few years back to kinda do the same thing I need it for, push tops and dug up stumps and such. Its got some dents and dings from pushing top piles. Its got a cab, which I think is unusual for an older 450. The cab is missing a few panes of glass but does have A/C, he says it works. It's also got some sort of wings that attach to the blade. I guess these wings pivot on pins and can be set at different angles to create or valleys or crests. They fold up, but are quite tall, so he took them off, which I guess they go back on easily. Not sure how these work exactly or how wide the blade is with these wings deployed. Most likely useless for me though, pushing rocks and red dirt in the hills of Arkansas. It also has rippers.

The story goes it came from a contractor in California that built roads. It pushed gravel for road beds. He rebuild the undercarriage the sold it to the guy I'm getting it from 2 yrs ago. This guy has a small piece of land hes worked with it and it hasn't left his place as long as he's had it. He says it perfect and runs strong. He has not had any issues with the dozer at all. Says it steers crisply and snaps right into gear. Doesn't get hot or have any leaks. Other than a few lines, he hasn't had to do a thing except change oil abd grease it. He is NOT a dozer guy though. I'm not either really. Kinda a scary situation, hehe. I haven't bought this thing yet, but looking at whats for sale around here it SOUNDS like a solid deal on something that I can use for a while and resell. In the market now there are several dozers in this price range ( he wants 12k for this dozer) but most are older, much older, or just too big. I know a D4 or a 850 would do the job faster, but I don't want a dozer that large. Too hard to get hauled around, maneuver in the woods and such. Plus, most in that price range are mid-70's D4's or older. Seems pretty old to me.

So, I said all this to ask....Does the deal sound pretty good to you guys? Also, as far as the 450E in particular, what should I watch for? Thanks so much for time and opinions.

Best Regards,

Rusty Alexander

 

[dbaer78]

That price sounds pretty good. Most 450s of that vintage in my area are probably more in the 15-16 range. The guys I work for used to have a 455e high lift and I know it was a pretty good machine for them. That cab makes it pretty unique too. I've never seen one with a cab like that.

 

[rusty0007]

Dbaer78, Here too, most 'newer' 450's or 350's for that matter are in the high teens here. Also, I have been unable to find one with a cab period, unless its a 2005 model or something. The cab needs some work. Possibly some expensive work. Its missing a few panes of glass and the right door. I guess a stump popped up and smacked the door and crushed it in. He just removed it. I've been googling around trying to find replacement parts for it and haven't really had much luck. I'm thinking if I can fix it up cheap enough it will be money well spent. As long as I don't break something else that is....which is likely. I haven't seen it in person yet. Its over 200 miles away so I want to be as armed as possible before I run down there and look at it. I've quizzed the guy to the point of pestering...lol. So, all that is left is going to see it.

 

[Lindblom Lawn Care]

The cab looks to be after market. I'd be more concerned about the transmission.

 

[rusty0007]

Lindblom, I've heard of tranny issues in the 450, and I've heard that people run them with no issues whatsoever. The owner says he's never felt a slip at all, but of course, what else would he say? From what I hear, you have to work them hard and long to get them to slip, if there is an issue. Overall, the general feedback I've received thus far has been they are the best machines in that class. There is some argument that I should try to find a Cat, but a D4 I think would be too pricey and large. The d4's I've seen in this price range are much older. The D3's in that era really didn't have good reviews. Some went as far as cursing the D3. According to some the 450 will out work the D3 hands down. Although others might disagree. It's hard to find someone that curses the 450 JD. So, I guess I'm picking the lesser of a few evils. I have a friend that has a Komatsu 31D (which has great reviews), but his is constantly broken down, usually pricey stuff too.I've ran it some, I'm not that impressed really.
Please let me know your thoughts on this. On the cab, I asked him if it was aftermarket and he didn't know. Since I'm having trouble finding parts for it, you could be correct. I'll investigate that when I see it in person. Hopefully there will be a manufatures tag or something on it.

 

[MBTRAC]

There's a lot of "cheap" dozers around & very few represent good value, add to that small dozers invariably cop more than their fair share of abuse being pushed into tasks usually well above their "weight".

Also consider relative to their "output" it costs roughly the same to repair, maintain or replace undercarriage on anything up to c.D6/7 sized machines & for the uninitiated dozer ownership can quickly become a whole world of mega $'s & pain when the first major repair comes your way - make no mistake owner any dozer is a high cost exercise. We run earthmoving gear including dozers & traxcavators on our farms/commercial earthmoving operation & if there was anyway I could avoid dozer/traxcavator ownership I would, unfortunately for us it doesn't (just) make overall commerical sense.

Depending on what you're trying to achieve & as you say it's a large job of making good a logging "mess", I'd suggest you may be far better off with an excavator in the c.12T (maybe up to say 20T) class: it'll dig up stumps quicker & far cheaper than the JD450 & is a whole lot cheaper to run on a cost/hr basis, fit the excavator with a thumb or grab & you can stack a burn pile really easily (& move fairly large rocks around), with the added bonus is an excavator isn't going to tear your land up like a dozer & has much greater versatility - you'll also find reselling any excavator is generally far easier than a fairly limited market for a small dozer.

Yes there's a good reason the original contractor owner was using the JD450 in roadmaking & pushing gravel as that's what the machine is sized to do, start asking much more of an already aged machine & the costs are going to escalate quickly & exponentially.

 

[rusty0007]

MBTRAC, thanks for the insight. I appreciate it. I totally agree too. A d6 for example would do twice the work, faster, even while burning 2 times the fuel. But, a D6 costs twice as much, which is where I bow out.I aso agree an excavator would do 75% of what needs done, and much easier than a dozer. No doubt. My issue is all the excavators I see are much much more expensive. I'd be hard pressed to find a tired, worn out mini-ex for 12k, let alone a full sized one. Something the size of what you are talking about would be very pricey. At the end of the day, I just need to clean up my farm without spending a ton of money doing it. I don't have 60k dollars to invest in a clean up. I just hope what ever I get holds up till I'm done! lol. Also, to clarify, I borrowed a JD 310D hoe and dug most all the stumps up. I just need to push them up and burn them. But still, an ex with a thumb would be the perfect tool. Lots of tops, everywhere! As far as re-selling the small dozer, here in Arkansas there are a lot of smaller farms, lots of call for small dozers. They sell almost instantly. Any dozer from the last 25 years that runs priced under 15k is gone quick. What you speak of is my greatest fear though. Breaking something pricey, which is easy to do. Totally agree with your thought process. Thanks for the reply!

 

[MBTRAC]

Rusty, sounds like you're taking the best approach by carefully weighing up all the options -if it's largely a "push & burn" & maybe raking exercise, IMO if I couldn't find a reasonably priced excavator I'd take a older style mid size 4x4 loader (something low tech & easy/cheap to fix like a Case W9, Clark Michigan 35, min Hough H30 or even a LeTorneau LD9) over a dozer (just watch not to stake a tyre)

I don't know the current used machinery market in the US (we've imported some S/H farm/earthmoving ex US over the years & generally prices seem a little cheaper in the US) though I would have expected there are still to be some bargains to be had post the economic downturn.
"Downunder" there's still a lot of good gear around at quite reasonable $'s (some machines Australian delivered & others "dumped" ex-Asia/Japan) even though locally we all survived the GFC pretty much unscathed:
As an example we picked up the 20T class Kato1220se pictured for $15K last year, mechanically/hydraulically/undercarriage sound & at 5000hrs reasonably low houred/looked after (i.e. no demolition or hammer work), sure it isn't a popular machine (& there's no way I'd use a Kato in our contracting operation) but for the $'s is a reliable "clunker" to be abused/bashed around by our farmhands - whether we run it for another 1000 or so hours then easily offload it for roughly the same as what we paid, or maybe run it to destruction (@say c.8000hrs, picking up a couple of thousand $ or so for scrap) on cost/hr we'll be in well in front (even against running our own current model excavators we use contracting).

I guess what I'm saying here in a round about way is keep looking there's always another bargain out there & there's always another machine if you have any doubts about this JD450 - For what it's worth about 20 or so years ago we ran a JD450C traxcavator & it was a reasonable if basic machine, we found Case at the time to be far superior crawler loaders, now we still have our "legacy" Case 1455B traxcavator for which parts are becoming increasingly problematic; as for dozers (apart from an old Fiat Allis 31 pensioned off for farm use & an ancient Fiat70CI which refuses to "die") we will only run exclusively Cat or Komatsu crawlers (generally Komatsu is under-rated with poor support & Cat commands an unrealistic premium mostly due to its better support).

Good luck & keep us all appraised of what you end up with.

 

[D7E]

Just for our own farm maintenance and tree clearing we have a 1968 Cat D7e that we bought 7 years ago for $14'000 knowing it had one cracked cyl head and this Drott 40 we bought for $5000 last year with bearings shot in one final drive and had been put out to grass .

 

[jdtractor]

Hi rusty007 I own a jd450e series dozer 87 yr. 6 way blade,with rops cab. Ive ran heavy equipment all my life ,dozers, track loaders etc..... Dozers up and including Cat D9 ,Ive been around the 10 and 11 series , never run but have sat in the cabs.Nice tractors. Ive also been around John deeres Heavier Iron also very good . IMO the Deere are better then the Cats up to and including the D6 models. The Hi tracks are for who ever likes them,I dont care for them much but if u run cat (newer models) thats what u get! Ive owned several smaller dozers and Ive run several smaller.I perfer, Deere. I dont want to sound partial but Deere is the better Machine, like youve stated earlier from the people u have talked to. They are dependable i have done nothing except general maintence on mine, and replace under carriage a few yrs ago. I bought it used for more then double what u are being quoted. I bought it back in 1992 june.The tracks were half gone fome stone work etc...... I did my undercarriage work 4yrs ago.Tracks ,bottom rollers,idlers, adjusters etc......complete. I have never had any isues with trans. never and I own a farm and do and have done custom dirt work (heavy ) dirt work. Alot of people who own heavy equipment are owners only , they would tare up an anvil with a rubber hammer. Im not saying you would but alot has to do with the operater. Ive fired Guys who said they were operaters and couldnt run a lawn mower. The 450 will work with the D4 and out work the D3 and even the Komatsu Ive seen and done it. If you can buy this tractor for the price u said i would say u are doing good my appraised at $12000. -$15000. I wouldnt take that its worth more to me then that. The cab would be an asset. or problem . You could always remove it. IMO U wont go wrong with this tractor they also hold there resale value which u already know. Just my 0.02 . Good luck to You.

 

[rusty0007]

Jdtractor, Thanks for the insight, especially since you own this model and year. I went ahead and bought it today. Its not going to win any beauty contests but seems solid. I ran it for about an hour, pretty hard. The trans temp never really got over about 1/4 into the green, same with the engine temp. It started right up and didn't smoke a bit. It steers crisply and clutched and ran thru the gears perfectly. The only thing I noticed is that when shifting to reverse it seemed to have a slight delay before it engaged. But, it wasn't a slip at all, just a pause. I'd say less than 1 second. This happened warm or cold. The owner said he always clutched between directions using the powershifter. The U/C was documented being replaced 1 month before he bought it 18 months ago. It was 100% when he bought it and he says hes put about 200 hours on it in the last 18 months. Tracks and sprockets look great. From looking at his place and the work hes done, I agree with the time. Also, he obviously didn't work it too hard doing what hes done. The 6 way balde is a bit loose. Bushings I assume. All the hydraulics work flawlessly and I didn't see any leaks. The oil was black, as expected, but it had good viscosity and not milky or anything. Hydraulic fluid was clear, looked good.

I wasn't able to work it real real hard, it was pretty muddy and it was around 32 degrees outside. The cab is missing some glass (its an aftermarket cab I found out, a Sims) and the air units wiring was not connected, but he said it worked for him. He just didn't use it because he broke out one of the front windows so it was sorta worthless. The ripper worked as designed. The slope boards were removed but they were there, cylinders looked good on those.

Other than being dinged up and ugly, I think its a solid rig. Hopefully Im not wrong. Thanks for everyones help!

 

[Turbys_1700]

You got a solid rig at a good price...
We have two older Cats on the farm...
A D4D dozer and 941B loader...
Very nice to have at your disposal...
Shoot us some action pics when you get a chance...

 

[Bob Rooks]

Too late now, but I would have invested in a few oil samples before I bought it.

 

[rusty0007]

Too late now, but I would have invested in a few oil samples before I bought it.

Yeah, I thought about that. Probably would have been prudent. This is going to sound silly but I personally don't have a lot of faith in them, here's why. I recently lemon lawed a 2011 Dodge Cummins for oil dilution. Their DEF system causes quite a bit of fuel dilution/contamination in the oil. For reference, after 2500 miles this truck had about 12%-17% dilution.Cummins specs are 2% or so. So, at any given time I had over a quart or two of diesel mixed with my lube oil. Not really good for bearings and such. BUT, I had to prove it was causing damage. So, I ran around 6 oil samples over 3 oil changes using 2 different labs. Three samples x two labs. The samples were taken at the same time in mid-stream of a crankcase drain. Guess how many answers I got? Every time, two vastly different results. These were enhanced tests ran by Polaris and Blackstone, both were way different. Even something as simple as copper content was way different results. I couldn't pin point which lab was wrong either. Both had varying results on different things. What this did was cause me (and Chrysler) to doubt both tests. As to the fuel dilution, both results, although different, were out of specs so the tests ended up serving their ultimate purpose. But when the labs were questioned both just said that 'we use different equipment and techniques therefore we might have different results'. I was nearly a blanket statement, both statements were nearly identical, which at least that was a consistant result. heh

I know that oil testing is an important element. I'm just sharing my PERSONAL experiences. Since few people take the time or money to run two independent tests I thought I'd share what happened to me when I did. Kinda caused me to lose faith in any results I see. So, if you are running maintenance centered on oil samples I wouldn't run two, it will just piss you off and drive you crazy. Just my 2 cents...

 

[jdtractor]

Good to hear u bought your tractor! I will tell u this also mine pauses a little when shifting to reverse as u mentioned. about the same time frame as yours, I dont clutch when shifting except when in tight or close work. u will notice if u push the clutch and catch yourself doing it in time and let it out fast as shifting it will jerk in gear hard and quick. The clutch is designed for changeing gears and slow close work. Im not trying to say u dont knoiw what u are doing ,please dont take it that way, Im just trying to advise u.I learned this from talking to dealers and from watching my dad ,he ran heavy equipment all his life and owned several dozers big, and small. Most of his were cats a couple of deeres They were anything from the old hand clutch to the power shift models etc..... When he first started to work this tractor we are talking about he for some reaso more the once pushed the clutch in etc.... and partial let it out while shifting ,the reults were as i said Hard shifting (jerk quickly and hard.) This clutch controls the fluid drive in trans. etc.......As far as the bushings on your blade etc...mine are worn also not bad but not tight either. U will find that the steering clutches seldom need adjusting they self adjust to a certain extent. There is a plug under each saddle bag to adjust brakes . I have yet to adjust either on mine in the time frame ive owned it. When steering dont pull extremely hard on the steering clutches as this can cause need for adjustment then. Im telling u this Info based on the Manuals I have on this tractor and after talking to dealer servic techs etc...... I hope what Ive mentioned does u some good ,I kinda learned and figuered out also read about different issues as I went. Like I stated earlier every machine has its own bells and whistles. I hope your tractor does all u expect and more ,IMO u got a good machine ,Quality and dependable. I will only own DEERE. Good Luck to YOU. jdtractor.

 

[rusty0007]

Jd, Thanks again. Also, thanks for letting me know about the powershift. When I tested it I did it two ways. The main way was to just pull back or push forward the direction lever. It worked flawlessly, except for the pause I spoke of. I imagine that is functioning as designed actually. But, never running one before, i just didn't know.The second was clutching, which jerked like you described. Didn't seem natural for the machine
The extent of experience on a dozer is limited to a Kamatsu 31 w/ powershift. Although you didn't have to, I always mashed the de-fueler before shifting. Tapped it long enough to drop the RPMS a bit is all. The 450E doesn't have a de-fueler and I would think most of the time one would just use the throttle instead of the tiny pedal. I guess close in work the petal would be the way to go, but most of the time I'd think just run it up and leave it. Let me know your thoughts on this. Anyway, not using a de-fueler, I guess the shift would be exposed to engine RPMs. On a tractor with shuttle, thats a no-no. It will fry a clutch fast. But, this isn't a tractor shuttle. I assume JD has engineered around causing damage under those conditions. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems its designed just to pull the lever back when you need to back up then push it forward when you need to go forward. Regardless of engine RPM's and such. True or false? De-fueling with the throttle lever doesn't make sense and it doesn't have a de-fueler and using the clutch would be pretty agressive, most likely causing more damage than its saving. Anyway, thats my thought process on that. Oh, btw, I DON'T know what I'm doing on this thing! hehe. You are not offending me! As Clint Eastwood one said, 'A man's got to know his limitations'! On this subject, I'm limited. Thanks again!

 

[kevin37b]

That will make you a good tractor , just go slow and easy . That cab has no ROPS or FOPS SO DO NOT tackle standing trees with dead limbs . It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things , but it only takes one mistake .

 

[rusty0007]

Kevin, I was wondering about that. This cab is built though! Plate steel and huge mounts. The mounts are 1/2 inch steel. I don't know how it would fair in a roll over, I know one thing, I don't want to find out. But, its no flimsy cab, its a tank. To offer perspective, the dozer weighs in right at 20k. I'd say that cab added quite a bit. I think off the line it weighed 15,500 ish. Dunno if that counted the blade though. But, the general consensus is that a 450E weighs 16k or there abouts. Scale ticket on this one was right at 20K.

The owner said he did exactly what you are warning me about. A huge limb crashed down on the roof. I guess it hit right behind the AC unit. I looked up there and there is just a little scuff. Of course, my idea of a big limb and his might be two different things. The jury is out on the cab for me. It sort of restricts your visibility but it does offer quite a bit of protection you normally wouldn't have. After I'm done pushing tops I might replace the glass in it. Its missing a few panes, one being the right front windshield. lol. I tell ya, I bet when its 107 outside I'll be getting that AC running. lol

But, no, I was curious about this cab and if it officially offered ROP. I bet it doesn't. I will heed your advice. I plan on being very careful. Matter of fact, I doubt I'll push any standing trees over, period. Too many things can go wrong. I'm out. Thanks for the advice sir!

 

[Bob Rooks]

Not sure why you used two different labs, that's like wearing two watches. I operate a 12 mW diesel-electric plant and in part rely on oil sampling for preventive maintenance.
Anyway, it sounds like you got a pretty good machine, that one sprocket and chain pic looked pretty good. Congratulations.

 

[rusty0007]

Not sure why you used two different labs, that's like wearing two watches. I operate a 12 mW diesel-electric plant and in part rely on oil sampling for preventive maintenance.
Anyway, it sounds like you got a pretty good machine, that one sprocket and chain pic looked pretty good. Congratulations.

Bob, thanks so much for the reply! I totally agree. Under normal circumstances it would be silly to use two labs, or wear two watches for that matter, lol. In this case Chrysler insisted on running their own sample using Polarus, which was one of the two. My attorney recommended that I run my own too. Thus, two samples. All were collected in front of a Dodge/Cummins engineer. It was a mess. Since the fuel rail/injection system tested perfectly they couldn't figure out how this was happening. They eventually suggested that I was tampering, adding fuel to the oil just to lemon law the truck. Of course, they were proven wrong. But, because of the accusation two tests were run independently. This kept them honest, I guess. They paid for one and I paid for one. But, the results were very conflicting.

But sure, we used to run monthly oil samples on our diesel powered generators in the Navy. Of course, only one, so who knows if we would have got different results if we ran two. Probably. I will say this, Blackstone gave what I would think to be the most accurate results. At least their report reflected what I believe conditions would be with fuel dilution.