OP
deanocraft
Silver Member
How do I tell if the valve has regen on the dump curl? I just don’t know the answer to that.
Advice on Grapple Hydaulics
- Thread starter deanocraft
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countrybumpkin
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2005
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- Tractor
- Kioti, kubota
As for the hot fluid, if your diverter valve is plumbed in between the loader valve and curl cylinders and you were not using the loader it should have no effect on it, only time the diverter would see oil flow would be when moving the joy stick. It’s hard to say just how hot your fluid is by ones touching of the hoses, what’s hot to you might be colder or even hotter to someone else. Only accurate way is by checking fluid temp with a thermometer or gauge.
countrybumpkin
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2005
- Messages
- 3,237
- Tractor
- Kioti, kubota
Some place on the valve should be a I.d. Tag, you should be able to look that valve specs up and see if it’s a regen valve or not. You can also look in the loader owners manual and see if it tells.
OP
deanocraft
Silver Member
I checked my loader manual and it does not look like the valves mounted on the loader have regen. I am wondering if I should try to take the solenoid apart. Anyone know if you can just unscrew the plastic cap on the end of the solenoid?
LD1
Epic Contributor
Got any pictures of how its plumbed? Or a drawing of where ALL 6 hoses go? IT could always be a bad diverter valve out of the box. But I think its more likely you just got some hoses crossed up.
And even if your loader is regen.....no it wont work for a grapple....but the curl/dump should be unaffected. Without "activating" the grapple button....the diverter just allows fluid to flow straight through it as it normally would before you started this process.
And even if your loader is regen.....no it wont work for a grapple....but the curl/dump should be unaffected. Without "activating" the grapple button....the diverter just allows fluid to flow straight through it as it normally would before you started this process.
OP
deanocraft
Silver Member
Hey LDI, I have it plumbed exactly like this diagram on the Surplus Center site; https://www.surpluscenter.com/_MoreSpecs/I9-8602.pdf.
All I did was to remove the two lines that feed the dump/curl from my loader valve, and in their place, I put two lines that sent their flow to the diverter valve. These two short lines go into ports P1 and P2 on the diverter. I moved the old dump/curl lines to port C and D on the diverter. My grapple open/close comes through two new hoses from ports A and B on the diverter.
All I did was to remove the two lines that feed the dump/curl from my loader valve, and in their place, I put two lines that sent their flow to the diverter valve. These two short lines go into ports P1 and P2 on the diverter. I moved the old dump/curl lines to port C and D on the diverter. My grapple open/close comes through two new hoses from ports A and B on the diverter.
OP
deanocraft
Silver Member
I would appreciate some knowledge on why the diverter would not work if my valve had regen... That part does not make sense to me. All that regen stuff is happening in the loader valve, and the diverter just sends that hydraulic activity one way or the other... It just seems to me that the pressures in the two lines being fed from the diverter are just like they would be in a hydraulic line without the diverter. The cylinder on the grapple is a double acting cylinder, just like the dump/curl cylinders. I must not understand some stuff... but I am a beginner and don't have any hydraulics experience besides this project!
LD1
Epic Contributor
Regen pressurises BOTH hoses. The end result is the cylinder extends.
If you mistakenly reverse the hoses, at the diverter or the loader valve.....curl wouldn't work. It would extend ONLY (dump) and you would never be able to retract it.
Regen works for extending the cylinders to DUMP your loader because not alot of power is needed. On a grapple though.....Regen to extend /clamp down.....you will have about 1/4th the bite force the grapple should have. But that's only if it's a Regen valve
If you mistakenly reverse the hoses, at the diverter or the loader valve.....curl wouldn't work. It would extend ONLY (dump) and you would never be able to retract it.
Regen works for extending the cylinders to DUMP your loader because not alot of power is needed. On a grapple though.....Regen to extend /clamp down.....you will have about 1/4th the bite force the grapple should have. But that's only if it's a Regen valve
OP
deanocraft
Silver Member
Thanks LD1. I mounted the diverter upside down on the same post that the loader valve is mounted, so I guess I could have the hoses reversed. My symptoms are similar to what you described; bucket will dump but not curl, and the lid will not open. I can tell that I have them plumbed to the proper functions, though. I can see some movement in the correct lines when I activate the loader valve.
I am unfortunately back home in Atlanta now and I can't test the theory until next week. I will let you know the outcome when I get back up there.
I am unfortunately back home in Atlanta now and I can't test the theory until next week. I will let you know the outcome when I get back up there.
LD1
Epic Contributor
First let me ask if you understand how regen works.
If not, read this following paragraph.....if you do understand....feel free to skip ahead.
Under normal operation with a NON-regen valve.....You have 4 ports. P (pressure) T (tank/return) A (work port) B (work port). For purposes of describing, lets assume A port is going to the BASE end of the cylinder, and the B port is going to the rod end. So under normal operation, if you want to dump the loader (extend the cylinders) A port and P port are connected via the valve and allow pressure to enter P, and Exit A, and fill the based end of the cylinder. This causes it to extend. ANd B port is coupled to T port to allow the fluid exiting the rod end of the cylinder to return back to tank. Curling back is just the opposite.
Now how a regen valve is different is that BOTH A and B ports are connected to P. And NOTHING returns to Tank via T port. So when you dump, All the fluid trying to return to tank out of the rod end of the cylinder, is added back into the base end of the cylinder. Some may question why the cylinder still extends/dumps if you put pressure on both ends. Simple.....different areas of the piston. The force generated extending a cylinder is always more than retract, because you have to deduct the area of the rod. So extend wins out.....and the cylinder extends. And it does so FASTER since you are adding fluid back. But the MAIN reason it is done on loaders is to keep the cylinder FULL of oil when dumping a heavy load, because with a heavy load, gravity may allow the cylinder to extend FASTER than it can be filled with oil. And then you end up with a floppy bucket because the cylinders have air in them.
SO....now that you understand how regen works.....lets relate that to your symptoms.
Regen is for EXTEND (dump) only. You CANNOT retract a cylinder on regen....because applying pressure to BOTH cylinder ports causes it to extend as we already discussed. But when retracting, it operates like a normal valve....only one port open to pressure (B port) and the other port (A-port) is open to tank.
But what happens if you reverse your hoses on the valve. When trying to curl back.....normally you would be pressurizing ONLY the rod side of the cylinder, and the cylinder would retract. But if hoses are backwards.....you are now pressurizing the base end of the cylinder.....and it is causing the bucket to dump.
When trying to push the joystick away to dump position......that is regen....and regen ALWAYS extends the cylinder. So dump AGAIN.
That is why your cylinders are trying to DUMP on BOTH accounts. Now with the grapple.....I presume the grapple lid is already closed (cylinder extended). And just like with your bucket.....where BOTH functions are dumping the bucket......both functions are trying to make the grapple CLOSE....but its already closed so it appears nothing is happening.
Si if you simply swap the hoses going into the diverter (or at your loader valve), everything will work as it should. BUT....the grapple will have VERY WEAK closing force.....since extending a cylinder in regen in much much weaker, but faster (thats the tradeoff).
Regen works well for the dump on the tractor because you simply dont need much force to dump a bucket. But too week for a grapple.
IF I were you....I would forget the curl, and tie the diverter to the lift and lower circuit. IT is what I had to do with my grapple because I have a regen valve also.
Hope that makes things clear for you
If not, read this following paragraph.....if you do understand....feel free to skip ahead.
Under normal operation with a NON-regen valve.....You have 4 ports. P (pressure) T (tank/return) A (work port) B (work port). For purposes of describing, lets assume A port is going to the BASE end of the cylinder, and the B port is going to the rod end. So under normal operation, if you want to dump the loader (extend the cylinders) A port and P port are connected via the valve and allow pressure to enter P, and Exit A, and fill the based end of the cylinder. This causes it to extend. ANd B port is coupled to T port to allow the fluid exiting the rod end of the cylinder to return back to tank. Curling back is just the opposite.
Now how a regen valve is different is that BOTH A and B ports are connected to P. And NOTHING returns to Tank via T port. So when you dump, All the fluid trying to return to tank out of the rod end of the cylinder, is added back into the base end of the cylinder. Some may question why the cylinder still extends/dumps if you put pressure on both ends. Simple.....different areas of the piston. The force generated extending a cylinder is always more than retract, because you have to deduct the area of the rod. So extend wins out.....and the cylinder extends. And it does so FASTER since you are adding fluid back. But the MAIN reason it is done on loaders is to keep the cylinder FULL of oil when dumping a heavy load, because with a heavy load, gravity may allow the cylinder to extend FASTER than it can be filled with oil. And then you end up with a floppy bucket because the cylinders have air in them.
SO....now that you understand how regen works.....lets relate that to your symptoms.
Regen is for EXTEND (dump) only. You CANNOT retract a cylinder on regen....because applying pressure to BOTH cylinder ports causes it to extend as we already discussed. But when retracting, it operates like a normal valve....only one port open to pressure (B port) and the other port (A-port) is open to tank.
But what happens if you reverse your hoses on the valve. When trying to curl back.....normally you would be pressurizing ONLY the rod side of the cylinder, and the cylinder would retract. But if hoses are backwards.....you are now pressurizing the base end of the cylinder.....and it is causing the bucket to dump.
When trying to push the joystick away to dump position......that is regen....and regen ALWAYS extends the cylinder. So dump AGAIN.
That is why your cylinders are trying to DUMP on BOTH accounts. Now with the grapple.....I presume the grapple lid is already closed (cylinder extended). And just like with your bucket.....where BOTH functions are dumping the bucket......both functions are trying to make the grapple CLOSE....but its already closed so it appears nothing is happening.
Si if you simply swap the hoses going into the diverter (or at your loader valve), everything will work as it should. BUT....the grapple will have VERY WEAK closing force.....since extending a cylinder in regen in much much weaker, but faster (thats the tradeoff).
Regen works well for the dump on the tractor because you simply dont need much force to dump a bucket. But too week for a grapple.
IF I were you....I would forget the curl, and tie the diverter to the lift and lower circuit. IT is what I had to do with my grapple because I have a regen valve also.
Hope that makes things clear for you
