Age old debate, which truck & motor

[jcmseven]

I do not want to get off the topic of the OP, but it seems we have some consensus going. I did have a question myself when we are talking about 1/2 tons, 3/4 tons etc. My dad has a 1/2 Ford 2wd truck. He has thought about going with a diesel truck because he "just wants one." He tows, but nothing so heavy that a 1/2 could not do it, but at times he would be at the limit of its capacities. My dad is older and I am not thrilled about him towing at all, but he asking me the other day which diesel truck I would have though best for him. (I think he has seen mine and is enamored with it--and he is old enough to get what he wants even without a good reason). I said the GM, because it sits lower and is more manuverable in "daily driving" situations that the Ford or Dodge, and would mimic the size and drivability of his current truck better than a Ford would. He was going to look at them, but then the worrisome news about GM came out again. We have posted on this in the past, but how do posters feel NOW v. when we originally posted on this topic about going with a GM product??? I kept this question within this post mainly because it might have a bearing on our OP as he may consider a GM truck also at some point and it has pertinence in my mind to anyone considering a new diesel pickup and comparing brands. Anyone have any additional reservations about going with GM v. a few months ago??? My dad said also that the Duramax trucks have been VERY hard to find at local dealers to even have a chance to drive one. He has driven mine, but is going to test a 6.4L this weekend. He is not much into the Dodges.

John M

 

[Builder]

I have no doubt GM will file for bankruptcy in the next month or so. In fact, I'm surprised that they haven't already.

Even knowing that, GM will restructure, finally get the UAW albatross from around their neck, get rid of the inefficiency that has plagued them for the last 30 years and come back a smaller, better company.

I'd buy a GM truck, new or used, with no hesitation. Same with Chrysler or Ford, because they'll eventually file for bankruptcy, too. It's just a matter of time.

Even if someone buys them out, I'm sure the GM nameplate and the products in the pipeline or future products will still be developed. What you'll see is nameplates like Pontiac, Buick, Saab, Saturn, etc go away or get bought by the Chinese, etc.

GM was way too big with too much duplicity among nameplates. I have no idea how they lasted this long with all the duplicity, UAW, legacy costs, top heavy management, and size.

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

I'll admit the finacial state of the big three gives me pause but I doubt we'll see them disapear completly. I think dodge would be the first to go if they did close shop completly. As far as the 3/4 or 1 ton debate, I really don't see much truth in it. When a 3/4 or 1ton are same configuation there isn't much difference in capacity. A crew cab is going to be a compromise in capacitys anyways. I see as many 2500hd's towing huge 5th wheels as 1 ton ford's or dodges. My curreny 250 psd has a b&w gn hitch and a 12k conventional (15k weight dist) hitch. I believe the 350 version is only higher rated on the gn side not the rear hitch. I also have riderite airbags and premium shocks so the difference is negligible between it and a 350 (same configuation). My 15k gn doesn't even squat the truck and my dump trailer is very stable when towed at it's max. Now keep in mind I'm **** about not overloading the trailers or truck and always properly distribute the wieght. The main reason for this post was to hear owners (of all three) relevant experiances with there trucks. I have been a loyal ford guy, that said I'm not brand biased and would like the best(for my needs) truck. I had thought about getting the largest most hd truck availible to the market and just using for towing and truck work. But I also don't really like the idea of paying big dollars for something that is going to sit Monday-Friday. But I like the ride of a truck and you never no when your going to need all the feature that a truck offers.
So for me the biggest debate is to but a haul truck of daily driver/haul truck. I appreciate all the replys so far. There's definatly some merit to keeping the current truck for another year unless I come across a deal that can't be beat.
And although I don't often agree with builder I definatly get that he's very satisfied with his choice to try another brand. I really feel like the you should like the look and ride of what you drive. So I guess I want form and function.

Matt





















7

 

[Diamondpilot]

I'll admit the finacial state of the big three gives me pause but I doubt we'll see them disapear completly. I think dodge would be the first to go if they did close shop completly. As far as the 3/4 or 1 ton debate, I really don't see much truth in it. When a 3/4 or 1ton are same configuation there isn't much difference in capacity. A crew cab is going to be a compromise in capacitys anyways. I see as many 2500hd's towing huge 5th wheels as 1 ton ford's or dodges. My curreny 250 psd has a b&w gn hitch and a 12k conventional (15k weight dist) hitch. I believe the 350 version is only higher rated on the gn side not the rear hitch. I also have riderite airbags and premium shocks so the difference is negligible between it and a 350 (same configuation). My 15k gn doesn't even squat the truck and my dump trailer is very stable when towed at it's max. Now keep in mind I'm **** about not overloading the trailers or truck and always properly distribute the wieght. The main reason for this post was to hear owners (of all three) relevant experiances with there trucks. I have been a loyal ford guy, that said I'm not brand biased and would like the best(for my needs) truck. I had thought about getting the largest most hd truck availible to the market and just using for towing and truck work. But I also don't really like the idea of paying big dollars for something that is going to sit Monday-Friday. But I like the ride of a truck and you never no when your going to need all the feature that a truck offers.
So for me the biggest debate is to but a haul truck of daily driver/haul truck. I appreciate all the replys so far. There's definatly some merit to keeping the current truck for another year unless I come across a deal that can't be beat.
And although I don't often agree with builder I definatly get that he's very satisfied with his choice to try another brand. I really feel like the you should like the look and ride of what you drive. So I guess I want form and function.

Matt





















7

Matt, you are correct on the tow rating but look at what is more important in my eyes, the GVWR. A F-250 with 4x4 and a SuperCab has 10,000# the same truck in a F-350 with SRW is 11,500#. That is 1,500# extra payload. I can tell you this boat drops my 2004 F-250 nearly a foot while the 2006 F-350 drops barely 3". Its a scary ride at times in the F-250 with that load because the steering gets really loose and the breaking goes to heck.

Chris

 

[Builder]

I have been a loyal ford guy, that said I'm not brand biased and would like the best(for my needs) truck. I had thought about getting the largest most hd truck availible to the market and just using for towing and truck work. But I also don't really like the idea of paying big dollars for something that is going to sit Monday-Friday. But I like the ride of a truck and you never no when your going to need all the feature that a truck offers.
So for me the biggest debate is to but a haul truck of daily driver/haul truck. I appreciate all the replys so far. There's definatly some merit to keeping the current truck for another year unless I come across a deal that can't be beat.

I think it would be a mistake to buy a diesel truck only to run on the weekends unless it was an older used one. Diesel engines don't like to sit or be run sparingly. Diesels like to be run hard & often. The few diesel engines I've seen with trouble were ones that sat a lot and were used for weekend work. they tend to accumulate moisture in their fuel systems. they also lose their pre-lube on start ups. in fact, they make "pre-lubers" for diesels that sit. For your weekender use, I know you're gonna roll your eyes, but best choice there is a GM 3500 crewcab with an 8.1L/Ally/11.5" rear. Second choice would be a Ford V-10/auto 10.5" rear. You'll never get the payback on a diesel if you weekend-warrior a diesel truck. The big block gassers with advanced transmissions will tow anything you'll ever throw at them and don't mind sitting for 5 day periods every week.

And although I don't often agree with builder I definatly get that he's very satisfied with his choice to try another brand. I really feel like the you should like the look and ride of what you drive. So I guess I want form and function.

Matt

The advantage I have over a few of the usual suspects here is I freed myself of the brand loyalty chains. I buy the best truck that's available at the time I purchase. I'm not going to just broadly insist Ford, GM or Dodge is better no matter what like some here would do. To do so denies one the chance to buy the best available brand at the time one buys.

I don't know what brand I'll buy next. Right now, I'd probably buy a Dodge 3500 cab & chassis with a Aisin, exhaust brake and a utility body.

I have no desire to twist anyone's arm to buy GM or any brand. However, I would like to try to convince others to drop their brand loyalty so they can get the best and drop the silly pride thing.

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

Matt, you are correct on the tow rating but look at what is more important in my eyes, the GVWR. A F-250 with 4x4 and a SuperCab has 10,000# the same truck in a F-350 with SRW is 11,500#. That is 1,500# extra payload. I can tell you this boat drops my 2004 F-250 nearly a foot while the 2006 F-350 drops barely 3". Its a scary ride at times in the F-250 with that load because the steering gets really loose and the breaking goes to heck.

Chris

Chris, the F-250 squats more because it has smaller blocks on the rear axle and softer springs. I believe the axle is the same as are the breaks. So if you want the same performance add better shocks and the 3" blocks. That's all it will take. If both have the 6.0 and 3.73 rears there towing abilitys will be identical. I've been told by my ford mechanic the the axle ratings are only based on the springs not the actual axle. I can't say for sure since I'm not a mechanic. And 1500# isn't alot and really only affects the inbed hitch options. I have a GN with a 16k gvw, I only use about 10k and even without airbags the truck only levels out(maybe drops and inch or so). So if your F-250 drops a foot there's something wrong. 1500#'s isn't going to make 9" of difference.

Matt

 

[Diamondpilot]

Chris, the F-250 squats more because it has smaller blocks on the rear axle and softer springs. I believe the axle is the same as are the breaks. So if you want the same performance add better shocks and the 3" blocks. That's all it will take. If both have the 6.0 and 3.73 rears there towing abilitys will be identical. I've been told by my ford mechanic the the axle ratings are only based on the springs not the actual axle. I can't say for sure since I'm not a mechanic. And 1500# isn't alot and really only affects the inbed hitch options. I have a GN with a 16k gvw, I only use about 10k and even without airbags the truck only levels out(maybe drops and inch or so). So if your F-250 drops a foot there's something wrong. 1500#'s isn't going to make 9" of difference.

Matt

Matt, what you say makes no sense???? None of my trucks have blocks to lift them like the trucks of old had. The axle and the leaf springs meet with nothing between. Even if they had 25' of blocks it would still sag the same as a truck with no blocks. Its the leaf spring pack that carries the load. The stouter that pack the more load it will carry. Shocks do nothing to add to ride height or load capacity unless you put air shocks on it like in the 80's. The difference between the rear ends in my 2004 6.0 and 2006 6.0 is the number and thickness of the leaf spring stack.

And yes, payload capacity will definitely help with squat. The boat I pictured has about 1,800# of tongue weight so that extra 1,500# capacity means a lot. Heck 1,500# is is the payload of a average 1/2 ton truck. So yes it does make a difference. A F-350 is like having the payload capacity of a 3/4 ton and a 1/2 ton combined. Take a look at the specs.

Chris

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

Matt, what you say makes no sense???? None of my trucks have blocks to lift them like the trucks of old had. The axle and the leaf springs meet with nothing between. Even if they had 25' of blocks it would still sag the same as a truck with no blocks. Its the leaf spring pack that carries the load. The stouter that pack the more load it will carry. Shocks do nothing to add to ride height or load capacity unless you put air shocks on it like in the 80's. The difference between the rear ends in my 2004 6.0 and 2006 6.0 is the number and thickness of the leaf spring stack.

And yes, payload capacity will definitely help with squat. The boat I pictured has about 1,800# of tongue weight so that extra 1,500# capacity means a lot. Heck 1,500# is is the payload of a average 1/2 ton truck. So yes it does make a difference. A F-350 is like having the payload capacity of a 3/4 ton and a 1/2 ton combined. Take a look at the specs.

Chris

Chris, go over to Ford truck forum and they'll edjucate you on blocks. You made my point excatly the axle's are the same it's only a matter of springs/shocks. That's why a 350 parked next to a 250 looks a little bit higher. A modern 1/2ron have more capacity than that. If a 1ton was so much more capable than a 3/4 do you really think they'd only be a few hundred more in price. The frames and drive train are identical.
The 1500# differnce in capacity is only a matter if a better quality ride.

Matt

 

[Diamondpilot]

Chris, go over to Ford truck forum and they'll edjucate you on blocks. You made my point excatly the axle's are the same it's only a matter of springs/shocks. That's why a 350 parked next to a 250 looks a little bit higher. A modern 1/2ron have more capacity than that. If a 1ton was so much more capable than a 3/4 do you really think they'd only be a few hundred more in price. The frames and drive train are identical.
The 1500# differnce in capacity is only a matter if a better quality ride.

Matt

Either way we are way off topic but I can tell you I have 2 identical trucks 2 years apart and there is a world of difference in the capability of the two. We are not talking towing capacity, they are the same in a F-250/F-350 equipped the same. We are talking payload capacity on the truck itself. And no, the axles ratings are not the same. The F-250 4x4 has a rear axle rating of 6,200# while the F-350 4x4 SRW has a rating of 7,280# and the F-350 4x4 DRW has a rating of 9,000#

http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/superduty/features/specs/

Back to the original topic. I am just trying to give you all the facts. There is a difference between a F-250 and a F-350 SRW. Look at Fords site not a forum for the real skinny. Just trying to help you make the right decesion. I made the mistake of 2 3/4 ton trucks but now I have seen the light and will never bother with a 3/4 ton. Its either a 1/2 ton or strait to the 1 ton. Just too much gain going to a 1 ton for the $600 more to even consider a 3/4 ton truck. Even though they have the same tow rating there is a night a day difference in towing the same load. Trust me, I have both and the 3/4 ton is a joke compared to the 1 ton in both payload and handling a heavy tow load.

Chris

 

[Builder]

Chris, the F-250 squats more because it has smaller blocks on the rear axle and softer springs. I believe the axle is the same as are the breaks. So if you want the same performance add better shocks and the 3" blocks. That's all it will take. If both have the 6.0 and 3.73 rears there towing abilitys will be identical. I've been told by my ford mechanic the the axle ratings are only based on the springs not the actual axle. I can't say for sure since I'm not a mechanic. And 1500# isn't alot and really only affects the inbed hitch options. I have a GN with a 16k gvw, I only use about 10k and even without airbags the truck only levels out(maybe drops and inch or so). So if your F-250 drops a foot there's something wrong. 1500#'s isn't going to make 9" of difference.

Matt

No they're not. The tow capacities on paper may be identical, but the rear spring capacity (that's the crucial PIN weight we always talk about) is greater on a 1-ton. This make a big difference in where you can place the weight on your trailer and ultimately, how big of a trailer load you can tow. If it's a 1-ton, you can put more weight towards the front and improve handling. If it's a 3/4 ton, you have to rear load the trailer a lot more and that can cause all kinds of handling issues.

The springs in a 1-ton pack are more numerous or thicker. Therefore, a higher GVWR rating is on the door jamb sticker and ultimately a higher PIN weight. The axle and brakes are almost always the same, but the springs are an integral part of the suspension.

When you're towing a load, the 1-ton allows for less sag and more pin weight. You'll be relieved you have it when you see the pretty red lights in your rearview mirror. A 1-ton will give you 1000-1,500 more lbs of pin weight legally. Big difference when the portable scales come out of the truck of the cop car to measure the load on your rear axle.

This is why I'm highly critical of "brochure quoting" when it comes to load capacities on trucks.

Stay away from brochures and look at door jamb stickers, rear axle ratings and tires. Then you'll know your trucks towing capacity.

Brochures are for salesmen & wannabees. Doing the actual math & homework on the individual truck is how a pro does it.