dzljon
Advertiser
I like the thought but don't really know what you mean by punt, do you mean punt the machine and buy new or punt your wallet and hope for a good return
Ahp Tig welder 200x
- Thread starter ericher69
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I like the thought but don't really know what you mean by punt, do you mean punt the machine and buy new or punt your wallet and hope for a good return
ThomasH
Gold Member
Well, those are a different set of thoughts than the silly statement that Miller only assembles welders.
I happen to own Miller, Lincoln, Hobart, Marquette, and Everlast welders. Each was bought for a specific process and need, and each works fine. However, the insinuation that "open an AHP and Miller and you will see the same thing" is also silly. You are not buying a circuit board, you are buying a product, which means when you need support, parts, etc., the situations are entirely different. There are differences in quality, engineering, support, etc. I am not suggesting that there is a reason for everyone should buy one or another, to me that depends on what their needs are.
With Miller, Lincoln, ESAB and possibly others with an extensive dealer network, there is some overhead to that business model, and also some value to many people. To a homeowner, the requirements may be completely different and they may be happy with a shorter life span, lighter duty, and less reliable machine because it suits their needs.
But the products are in no way the same thing...
Fawken
Platinum Member
I wish all of that were still true. Hey, this is a tractor forum, so I cannot believe there are still people who haven't waken up to the fact that the USA threw the baby out with the bath water by farming out ALL manufacturing in the name of obscene profit. Yes, pay triple for the "name brand" machine whose weakest link (in spite of where it was assembled) is a Chinese voltage comparator the size of a tick. Yes maybe five years from now you can still get parts. Or, just as likely, you'll be in the same boat as the proud owner of the last BSA motorcycle that rolled off the line. And if that tiny, tick-sized, IC does go to smoking on you, there aren't many techs working at welding supply repair shops who can trouble-shoot to the component level. We either tell you you're Miller is not worth fixing or sell you a new control board for $1800.
ThomasH
Gold Member
I am sorry but you have several things that are not true in your statement:
1) Obscene profits - I hear this kind of thing from people who are ignorant about a certain business. When I had a hardware store, I supposedly had obscene profits according to a small number of customers. In fact, my gross profit was 22%, out of which I had payroll, rent, taxes, etc., and when everything was said and done it was about 2%. In fact, most businesses are this way with the exception of high technology companies such as Microsoft and Apple.
2) The parts used inside of a welder are all the same. No, in fact every single company that I know that engineers products (which would include all of the welders as far as I know) designs to a MTBF or lifespan of equipment. My Miller XMT304 is supposedly designed to go a minimum of 6000 hours without maintenance of any sort. I was told by MIller service that the most common part that fails on it is the fan and power switch.
Are you suggesting that all welders are engineered to the same specs, and use the same components? Just capacitors alone (which every welder has some except for the plainest transformer units) vary greatly in spec although look almost identical from the outside. Some are rated at 85 degrees C, others at 105, 125, 150, etc. And different voltages, commonly 5, 50, 75 volts, etc. So the heavier units will typically use capacitors with a higher over-rating on temperature and voltage for the design, so they won't fail as easily if the welder gets hit with a input voltage strike. Just one simple example about components that look the same but have different lifespans.
The main point is that you are satisfied with what you have because it fits your needs. If you aren't doing much welding, you would be hard pressed to put 500 hours on a welder and don't need one that goes 10,000 hours and costs much more. There is a difference in the Harbor Freight $3.99 claw hammer and my Vaughn (sorts looks similar) 16 oz claw hammer which cost me $18. That's all I am saying.
And although the EPA is trying to destroy all remaining manufacturing in the US, they haven't succeeded yet. We are not too far behind China, and there are lots of things being made in other countries such as Japan, Germany, South Korea, etc.
Fawken
Platinum Member
Wow. Nice book, there, Thomas. I'll read it sometime when I've got nothing else to do. I own Esab and Miller cutters and migs. Nothing wrong with them other than price. If you own a business and can "write off" the cap expense- then fine. If you're just one of those guys who thinks it makes him a better man to have outrageously expensive tools (that seldom get used) I don't envy you. Either way I'm not making money by responding so have at it.
dzljon
Advertiser
I would like to add that "profit" is anything above expenses, and some of the top brands are imported from China and other countries, lincoln for example is imported as well as thermal dynamics, two industry giants and they are freakin expensive, they also have huge advertising budgets, who do you thinks pays for that? There are pretty good machines out there at good prices and able to do so because they have not grown to that level.
Arc weld
Veteran Member
Lincoln. Miller, Esab and the other big names aren't exactly on the brink of receivership because nobody wants to pay extra for their machines. They were pioneers in the industry for close to 100 years and their reputation for a quality product was earned. They spend a lot more on research and development that companies in China that generally copy something that is already made. They also have much better manuals, catalogues, training, service centers, parts support, web sites, sales reps, applications engineers, etc., etc. It costs money to have all these "extra" services that most import manufacturers don't have. For most shops and a lot of individuals these extra's are worth paying more for.
dragoneggs
Super Star Member
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Well said Arc. Further there is still quality manufacturing in the US and it is rebounding as foreign labor rates and shipping costs increase. I continue to hear folks dish out broad brushed statements that just aren't true. Foreign competition is better for us all whether it drives prices down or selection, or range of quality and pricing. For those who want to live in the past... Good luck to you. Yes I love
American product but it is not always the best, all things considered.
dzljon
Advertiser
I am confused on what you are saying, you start out saying that many people don't receive the top brands because of price and then say people prefer to pay the price for the reasons you listed, what exactly are you trying to point out?
Also Esab has obsorbed the victor brand, so the once u.s. staple has moved and is now owned by an over seas company
OP
ericher69
Veteran Member
Let me know how you like it!
I still have my MM252 and Cannox Sparkler; no TIG purchase yet as it really is a luxury at ANY price point... I do not need it just want it!
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