Amsoil or Permatran

[billclarketbn]

Is the new 821 XL Permatran a synthetic hydraulic oil? Is it really any better than NAPA's best (listed as equal to Permatran on their jug) and adding some Lucas booster?

 

[Robin Veerman]

Google is your friend. Check it out and tell us what you learned... ;>) Dutchy

 

[5030]

depends on the end use and what you consider good and what you consider cheap junk. Any triple 3 fluid is basically junk.

 

[billclarketbn]

I really do not trust Google much and have not a clue what a triple 3 fluid is.

My hydraulic fluid weeps slightly from the Nimco control. Did not do this until I replaced the existing fluid with Napa (which says compatible with Permatran). Lucas product ads sound good and some posts I have seen sound good. Thought about Amsoil fluid or the new 821 XL. But, the current fluid only has about 50 hour on it. Hence, thinking about Lucas product. Weeping may just be the high dollar Nimco not doing its job.

I am 75 and do not get around well, so things are best done once and done right. My dealer is next to useless - only interested in heavy equipment sales. Not is subcompact service. Tried to get him to come out and service or even come and get it and take it for service - no interest! So I have to do everything myself. No family except wife (she does help a lot). Even thought about selling and buying a new one - but am a little hard put to replace a tractor with only 440 hours on it.

It hauls yard debris, trash cans, and what ever lifting we need done. Also plows snow in the winter. Lives in a heated garage. Basically, a very easy life.

Now you know why I ask the experts. I really would appreciate some advice.

 

[Robin Veerman]

Is the new 821 XL Permatran a synthetic hydraulic oil? Is it really any better than NAPA's best (listed as equal to Permatran on their jug) and adding some Lucas booster?

Looks like the 821 Permatran is a synthetic and if it has the XL designation it means that it is longer life version of the basic 821 Permatran.

I use AMSOIL Tractor/Hydraulic fluid in my Kioti CK30HST and it's coming up to 300 hours on the oil. It looks good, so I'll change the filters soon and possibly take UOA sample to have it tested. My tractor is about 10 minutes from my house and when I start it to blow snow I hardly need to warm the tractor up because the hydraulics work smooth as if it's summer temps. I also use AMSOIL in the engine to help the cold starts. It can get to -30C quite easily here in Ontario Canada.

Here is a link if you wish to check it out. Pricey here in Canada, but to me I'm very happy with it. A bonus for you guys it's made in 'Merica too. AMSOIL Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil SAE 5W-3
Dutchy

 

[DMW]

The GC2300 takes under 4 gallons for a full fluid change, hydro and front axle (same oil). I would avoid the 821XL, there are better fluids. Kubota SUDT2 is among the best affordably priced fluids that is widely available. Amsoil is best for extreme conditions, but also has a hefty price tag. "Compatible With" or "Meets Standard" means absolutely nothing when dealing with most economy brand tractor fluids.

 

[Robin Veerman]

I would suggest that the front axle oil be changed out to a gear lube such as 75w90 or similar at the 50 hour service. Typically the front axle would come with hydraulic lube from the factory, less chance of a mix-up during the factory build, with the recommendation of a gear lube being installed after break-in. You don't want a thin lube in your 4x4 front axle while digging, pushing or transporting heavy loads etc. Dutchy

 

[Langanobob]

Bill,

If it was my tractor I’d consider 2 options. First, leave it alone. The weeping might continue if you change to a more expensive fluid. The NAPA oil you used is formulated by one of the major oil companies and if it says it meets Permatran specs, it meets Permatran specs. I personally avoid Lucas products and would not add their additive. Lucas spends a lot of money on advertising and do some good in sponsoring races but I don’t think their products are very good.

The other option, for your piece of mind, is to change to the Amsoil tractor hydraulic fluid. It will be expensive but I don't think you can find a significantly better product. You will not have to change it again. Your valve may continue to weep no matter what oil you use. I would just consider that it is a tractor and a little weeping is going to happen as it piles up the hours.

 

[YLee Kioti]

Saved this from and old TBN thread.
Authenticated Program - TractorLife
Good reading material and possible choices for you to select.

I was about to make a mistake based on many post here and buy the 303 fluid. Glad I did not.
I find it difficult to believe a fluid 'caused' a leak.

Fluids leak for many reasons and more are due to changes in mechanical integrity.
Do you have a local heavy equipment repair shop near you?

I've spoken with one here and will service my tractor when it is out of warranty. So they do exist, so for your consideration.

Regards....

 

[billclarketbn]

The plan: Going to add the Lucas and see what happens. If that does not do the job, then in the spring I will get the valve professionally rebuilt and put in Amsoil. Also going to add JD dye, then I can see what is in the glass easier. In the engine, I use Rotella T4 15W-40. Thanks for the replies - good advice and appreciated.

 

[Cat_Driver]

Google is your friend. Check it out and tell us what you learned... ;>) Dutchy

Sorry Google is the farthest thing from your friend.

Those that pay the most get searched and shoe up. No pay no show.

Many, many times I searched Google maps for hotels near where I want to stay and only few show up when I know others are in the area.
No pay - no show.

 

[People123]

Amsoil ATH will drop 20 to 50 deg F off the hydro operating temp vs. permatran.
Cooler temps gives hoses, seals and gaskets much longer and happier lives

 

[DarkBlack]

depends on the end use and what you consider good and what you consider cheap junk. Any triple 3 fluid is basically junk.

333 fluid? Never heard of it.

 

[some zilch]

Hi bill clark; im your neighbor over in schoharie.........

im guessing your dealer is abele; and no they dont care about servicing small tractors.

permatran is pretty ok stuff; id take that over anything from napa

 

[coobie]

Google is your friend. Check it out and tell us what you learned... ;>) Dutchy

Not really..

 

[Jboyorak]

Amsoil ATH will drop 20 to 50 deg F off the hydro operating temp vs. permatran.
Cooler temps gives hoses, seals and gaskets much longer and happier lives

Is there any specific data on this?

 

[ray66v]

Is there any specific data on this?

Nope.

I have seen a quality fluid run cooler, based on looking at an actual transmission temperature gauge, in a golf course mower. However, the Permatran is a quality fluid. And, Permatran3 was the actual fluid used in that test.

I am a fan of the Amsoil ATH. And, I have had it in my GC for over a decade.

People make lots of claims about it, which Amsoil does not make.

On paper it's not magic, unless you are operating in extreme temperatures. Or, want to extend your intervals.

Because of the long warm up times recommended in the GC owners manual for operation at very cold temps, I chose to use the synthetic, in case there was any edge I could gain there. But, If you look at the specifications, even the old Permatran 3, stacked up pretty well against the Amsoil ATH.

The OEM fluids are, finally catching up. And, they are all going to synthetic now too.

Lots of GC owners are using the Amsoil ATH. But, you would also be fine with the new Permatran.

 

[RickB]

I would suggest that the front axle oil be changed out to a gear lube such as 75w90 or similar at the 50 hour service. Typically the front axle would come with hydraulic lube from the factory, less chance of a mix-up during the factory build, with the recommendation of a gear lube being installed after break-in. You don't want a thin lube in your 4x4 front axle while digging, pushing or transporting heavy loads etc. Dutchy

Many high quality tractor hydraulic oils have higher shear strength than any GL oil. Exactly why you do not see GL oils lubricating high horsepower tractor power trains. Changing hydraulic or front axle oils at 50 hours is a complete waste of oil and money.

 

[def38]

I often refer to BITOG for information on oils and their application. Also, A UOA (Blackstone Labs) is the best way to tell how your oil is performing.

 

[Robin Veerman]

Changing hydraulic or front axle oils at 50 hours is a complete waste of oil and money.

Well, we are all allowed our own opinion of course... The waste of oil/money by doing a first change at 50hrs??? I can't disagree more, my opinion of course. For sure the lube isn't broken down, but.....it's contaminated quite severely with initial break-in metal particles. Not a good idea to have those floating around and through expensive pumps/gears, if I might say so. End of argument, no other opinion allowed, well, unless its in a leased machine and its going to be returned for a new unit soon. Poor pity the next owner....

Disclaimer here. I sell AMSOIL in my spare time and currently AMSOIL has a promotion for free shipping (until the end of May)if the order is over $100. I'm in Canada so I'm not quite sure what the USA offer is, but here's a link if anyone is interested.

Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil SAE 5W-3 ATH - AMSOIL

It isn't the easiest lube to sell due to the initial cost, but once a customer installs it and sees the difference during extreme temps (especially cold) they couldn't be happier, my experience. Dutchy