An future end to DPF Diesels?

[ptsg]

As someone who drives 100 miles a day round trip to and from work, my wallet just winced. Gas runs about $2.25/gal around me, and I still put $65-$70 worth of gas in my truck each week. I couldn't imagine paying triple that...

Average salary here is around 1050$. Average rent for a decent house is around 500$, plus electricity, TV+internet, water and gas that will add another 150$, plus around 120$ of fuel for a months worth of work trips. If you add all that up, won't be much left over for essential stuff like food and such.

That average salary is way too misleading as the minimum average here is 670$. Most people here will earn the minimum salary, if you add a 400$ rent, you'll realize it's almost impossible to live.

 

[fried1765]

Average salary here is around 1050$. Average rent for a decent house is around 500$, plus electricity, TV+internet, water and gas that will add another 150$, plus around 120$ of fuel for a months worth of work trips. If you add all that up, won't be much left over for essential stuff like food and such.

That average salary is way too misleading as the minimum average here is 670$. Most people here will earn the minimum salary, if you add a 400$ rent, you'll realize it's almost impossible to live.

Yup!
Portugal is a beautiful country for us Americans to visit.
Very inexpensive ( for us ).
Many years ago I lived just over the border in Spain.
Spent time in the Azores too.....beautiful!

 

[L47TLBwannabe]

Laboratory testing is one thing real world use is another. But I think the real devil is the use of DEF and anybody who lives in a legitimate cold climate will know what I'm talking about. DEF has gotta be the most asinine thing to have to use on a diesel engine. Firstly it freezes below -15 degrees celsius and it can easily go to -40 degrees celsius here with a -50C windchill (no climate change or global warming or climate emergency's here), the water in DEF can evaporate leaving what are basically salt crystals behind which will bugger up the system, and it is corrosive to metals and due to to that often cause sensor failures. DPF's can fail too especially with excessive idling but my experience with them is they are slightly more reliable in cold climates. I like many other Heavy Equipment Operators, Truckers, mechanics, and farmers hate tier 4 and think that if conventional diesel fuel is so bad it's not the exhaust that needs to be tamed its the fuel or the combustion process that needs to be changed. So if this system can work without DEF or DPF that would be great but I'm sure it will take forever before the manufacturers and the ridiculous and overreaching EPA can adopt it.

 

[workinallthetime]

IMO everything is driven by profit, suddenly there is a huge demand for a fluid that I understood was a bi-product during production. As baked in as DEF is now we will never get rid of it unless the liberal lab rats determine it causes cancer.
Never thought I would be the one to say this but maybe if the Diesel HP / towing capacity race would end we could see better MPG's and lower maintenance costs along with extended life expectancy.

 

[Agvg]

Hope this is the answer. Diesels of today remind me of Cars from the 80' with all those vacuum lines, smog pump and lousy performance.

I think modern diesels had a lot more performance than ever before.

 

[fried1765]

Laboratory testing is one thing real world use is another. But I think the real devil is the use of DEF and anybody who lives in a legitimate cold climate will know what I'm talking about. DEF has gotta be the most asinine thing to have to use on a diesel engine. Firstly it freezes below -15 degrees celsius and it can easily go to -40 degrees celsius here with a -50C windchill (no climate change or global warming or climate emergency's here), the water in DEF can evaporate leaving what are basically salt crystals behind which will bugger up the system, and it is corrosive to metals and due to to that often cause sensor failures. DPF's can fail too especially with excessive idling but my experience with them is they are slightly more reliable in cold climates. I like many other Heavy Equipment Operators, Truckers, mechanics, and farmers hate tier 4 and think that if conventional diesel fuel is so bad it's not the exhaust that needs to be tamed its the fuel or the combustion process that needs to be changed. So if this system can work without DEF or DPF that would be great but I'm sure it will take forever before the manufacturers and the ridiculous and overreaching EPA can adopt it.

Today's Tier IV DEF/DPF equipment will very likely become pariah equipment within the next ten years.
The likely result will be low resale value.

 

[ovrszd]

Today's Tier IV DEF/DPF equipment will very likely become pariah equipment within the next ten years.
The likely result will be low resale value.

Yes. Those that can deal with the issues will be able to buy used equipment at a bargain price. Those that can't will be forced to buy the "new" version of "clean" at an elevated price of course.

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

Sad part i work on electronics for a living and have my engineering degree and refuse any diesel that requires electronics to run. No need for it. I'll keep my old mahindra 485 as long as I can and I will always have a truck with 12V Cummins with a mechanical pump. They just last and are reliable.

 

[Cougsfan]

I do think we need to be cognizant of the concerns of diesel emissions. Nothing irks me more than to see some kid purposely mis-tune his diesel pick-up so it will smoke (They think that is cool, makes them look like they are ready to enter a tractor pull or something).

Diesels do emit a higher amount of particulates and their high combustion temperatures do create more NOX. They are not desirable features of a diesel. But we also have to be intelligent about how we address them. Currently we are not using much intelligence. Diesels also have a lot of things going for them over gasoline engines. The pre-mentioned article does appear to address the drawbacks in a more intelligent manner and I hope it pans out.

Someone earlier mentioned diesel over electric vehicles. Nothing I'd love to see more than a diesel version of a Chevy Volt.

 

[sd455dan]

found this DFI Vid from Sandia Special Recogonition R&D

R&D 100 Special Recognition 2019: Ducted Fuel Injection - YouTube


Soot reduced by ~95% :thumbsup:
Looks like the initial research has been done on Direct Injected engines and have not seen any testing on indirect injected diesels yet.

Would be a great aftermarket for any consumer used diesel engines to be able to just buy a set of DFI injectors run clean and save fuel at the same time, But from the size of the added nozzle unit- it looks like many diesel heads might need to be bored out in the stock injector location to a larger diameter to allow a DFI modded injector to be replaceable.

From the vids soot reduction during combustion, good possibility the engine oil would be somewhat like gas engine owners experience when switching from gas to propane.

Maybe also the ability extend oil changes because the carbon content has been greatly reduced.
Diesel engines no longer having black oil at oil change time?

If this can be easily adopted to existing diesels en mass it really does look to be a game changer.

 

[ericm979]

Drop in DFI mechanical injectors would be pretty cool.

There are scientific papers on DFI unfortunately I haven't found any that are not behind pay walls.
There's also a patent: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...G&l=50&s1=9,909,549.PN.&OS=PN/9,909,549&RS=PN

The patent includes the idea of attaching the duct to the injector.

 

[sd455dan]

Drop in DFI mechanical injectors would be pretty cool.

There are scientific papers on DFI unfortunately I haven't found any that are not behind pay walls.
There's also a patent: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...G&l=50&s1=9,909,549.PN.&OS=PN/9,909,549&RS=PN

The patent includes the idea of attaching the duct to the injector.

Wonder how long it will take for a youtube vid to show up from someone with good machining equipment and an old diesel engine to play with to actually build a working production engine by just modifying the injector(s) and possibly head.

Is it legal to use the Bunsen burner tech as an individual not selling anything for personal use???

 

[Cougsfan]

Is it legal to use the Bunsen burner tech as an individual not selling anything for personal use???

As long as you don't market it, you could legally make whatever modifications you want without worrying about infringing on patents.

 

[Reb954]

A patent protects against making, using or selling.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

A patent protects against making, using or selling.

Yes as does a posted 55 MPH speed limit protects
from people driving 56 MPH or faster.

 

[fried1765]

A patent protects against making, using or selling.

As we protect our bedrooms from the mattress police, we should now protect our garages from the tractor police?

 

[WinterDeere]

Plus we have DEF that gets injected in small quanities to reduce NOx supposedly which doesn't work quite often in the winter.

DEF in tractors? Say it ain’t so!

 

[ericm979]

A patent protects against making, using or selling.

In practice they're unlikely to care if you build one for yourself and don't market it. You haven't made any money from it so the triple damages the assignee could recover are still zero. They'd have to be going after you out of spite. Sandia (funded by the federal government) probably would not do that.

Even the organizations charged with writing intellectual property law are confused on the issue. From WIPO's FAQ:

"A patent owner has the right to decide who may – or may not – use the patented invention for the period in which the invention is protected. In other words, patent protection means that the invention cannot be commercially made, used, distributed, imported, or sold by others without the patent owner's consent."

Case law in individual countries probably does make this clear but that's not something I know. Next time I talk to a patent attorney I'll ask.

 

[Threepoint]

I think Cougsfan is probably referring to the "private and non-commercial use" exception to patent law protection in most developed countries. E.g., see this abstract:
https://www.wageningenacademic.com/doi/abs/10.3920/978-90-8686-885-8_8

 

[sd455dan]

Thread Bump

and new tech for Gas engines that uses "jet" injection Somewhat like but different than the old Honda CVCC (Compound Vortex Combustion Chamber) design. 20 % fuel economy and 95% reduction in NOx

From MAHLE the auto parts/tech company

Want +20% MPG? Bam, Here You Go - Autoline Exclusives - YouTube