Another closed thread because of politics @Egon

[tcreeley]

That's all well and good, but at what cost, and what are we defining as pollution?
If we clean up to be "carbon neutral" at a cost of 1.5x the cost of building stuff anywhere else and other countries dont, we have put ourselves at a significant competitive disadvantage when competing with the rest of the world.
That was the issue with the Paris Agreement, we were to set to work towards some fairly aggressive goals while much of the world set much more modest goals and we were to pay them billions to achieve their modest goals.

Aaron Z

If I am in a sinking boat and I am bailing to toss the water out as it comes in - and I look over at the other guy and he is eating his lunch. He is a lazy guy and not really trying hard - so I say to myself, the **** with it. If he isn't going to work, I'm not either. And I start eating my lunch.

 

[/pine]

Don't have a closed mind...
Don't shoot the messenger...

Top scientists start to examine fiddled global warming figures - Telegraph

 

[tcreeley]

You may be on to something... here's 15 glaciers that grew in 2015/2016... that's more than I thought...

(Kindly ignore the 121 that shrank)

From here... interesting reading.
latest glacier mass balance data world glacier monitoring service

2 Mass balance data

Table 3: Reported mass balance values of the observation period 2015/16, as well as *preliminary values for 2016/17. Principal investigators are listed for submitted data of 2015/16.

NAME	MB16	*MB17	INVESTIGATOR/SPONSORING AGENCY
	[mm w.e.]	[mm w.e.]
Antarctica
Bahia del Diablo	-605		S. Marinsek, J.L. Seco, E. Ermolin (Instituto Ant逍ｵtico Argentino)
Hurd	+290		F. Navarro and colleagues (UPM/ETSIT)
Johnsons	+530		F. Navarro and colleagues (UPM/ETSIT)
Argentina
Brown Superior	+167	+798	G. Cabrera and colleagues (IANIGLA)
Conconta Norte	+429	+4725	G. Cabrera and colleagues (IANIGLA)
Los Amarillos	+1431	+2223	G. Cabrera and colleagues (IANIGLA)
Martial Este	+55		R. Iturraspe and colleagues (Universidad Nacional de Tierra del Fuego)
Austria
Goldbergkees			B. Hynek and colleagues (ZAMG)
Halstaetter Gletscher	-1130		A. Fischer and colleagues (Energie AG)
Hintereisferner	-1263	-1826	Juen I., Galos S., Kaser G. and colleagues (ACINN)
Jamtalferner	-800		A. Fischer and colleagues (HD/LT)
Kesselwandferner	-500	-1054	Juen I., Galos S., Kaser G. and colleagues (ACINN)
Kleinfleisskees			B. Hynek and colleagues (ZAMG)
Pasterze	-1163		B. Hynek, A. Neureiter and colleagues (ZAMG)
Obersulzbachkees	-467		A. Fischer and colleagues (HD/LS)
Stubacher Sonnblickkees	-828	-1850	H Wiesenegger, H. Slupetzky and colleagues (HD/SB)(HD/LS)
Venediger Kees
Vernagtferner	-781	-1460	Braun L., Mayer C. and colleagues (CGGBAS)
Wurtenkees			S. Reisenhofer and colleagues (ZAMG)
Zettalunitz/Mullwitz	-858		A. Fischer and colleagues (HD/LS)
Bolivia
Chacaltaya	vanished
Charquini Sur			A. Soruco and colleagues (IGEMA)
Zongo			A. Soruco and colleagues (IGEMA)
Canada
Devon Ice Cap NW	-483		D.O. Burgess and colleagues (GSC)
Helm	-1280	-1200	M. Demuth, M. Ednie and colleagues (NRCan)
Meighen Ice Cap	-791		D.O. Burgess and colleagues (GSC)
Melville South Ice Cap	-792		D.O. Burgess and colleagues (GSC)
Peyto	-1844	-1410	M. Demuth, M. Ednie and colleagues (NRCan)
Place	-1330	-1170	M. Demuth, M. Ednie and colleagues (NRCan)
White	-268		L. Thomson and colleagues (Uottawa/DG, TU/G)
Chile
Amarillo	+1405	+3822	G. Cabrera and colleagues (IANIGLA)
Guanaco			A. Rivera and colleagues (CECs)
Echaurren Norte	-2284		G. Barcaza and colleagues (DGA)
China
Urumqi Glacier No.1	-780	-681	H. Li and colleagues (CAREERI/CAS)
- East Branch	-939	-773	H. Li and colleagues (CAREERI/CAS)
- West Branch	-498	-519	H. Li and colleagues (CAREERI/CAS)
Parlung (Glacier No. 94)	-1086		S. Li, W. Yang, and colleagues (ITPR/CAS)
Colombia
Conejeras	-5545		Jorge Luis Ceballos and colleagues (IDEAM)
Ritacuba Blanco	-633		Jorge Luis Ceballos and colleagues (IDEAM)
Ecuador
Antizana 15 Alpha	-141		B. Caceres and colleagues (INAMHI)
France
Argent?re	-680		C. Vincent and D. Six (CNRS)
Bionnassay
Gebroulaz	-410		C. Vincent and D. Six (CNRS)
Ossoue	-1370		P. Ren and colleagues (Association Moraine)
Saint Sorlin	-1140		C. Vincent and D. Six (CNRS)
Sarennes	-1510	-3001	E. Thibert and colleagues (IRSTEA)
Tre la tete	-820		L. Moreau and colleagues (CNRS EDYTEM)
Greenland
Freya			B. Hynek and colleagues (ZAMG)
Mittivakkat	-1770		N.T. Knudsen, S. Mernild and colleagues (NTK)
Qasigiannguit			J. Abermann and colleagues (GEM/ASIAQ)
Iceland
Bruarj?ull	-342		F. P逍捏son (University of Iceland), A. Gunnarsson (National Power Company of Iceland) and colleagues
Dyngjuj?ull	-236		F. P逍捏son (University of Iceland), A. Gunnarsson (National Power Company of Iceland) and colleagues
Eyabakkaj?ull	-930		F. P逍捏son (University of Iceland), A. Gunnarsson (National Power Company of Iceland) and colleagues
Hofsj?ull E	-1330		Th. Thorsteinsson and colleagues (VEDUR)
Hofsj?ull N			Th. Thorsteinsson and colleagues (VEDUR)
Hofsj?ull SW			Th. Thorsteinsson and colleagues (VEDUR)
K?dukvislarj?ull	-642		F. P逍捏son (University of Iceland), A. Gunnarsson (National Power Company of Iceland) and colleagues
Langj?ull Ice Cap	-1677		F. P逍捏son (University of Iceland), A. Gunnarsson (National Power Company of Iceland) and colleagues
Tungnarj?ull	-1415		F. P逍捏son (University of Iceland), A. Gunnarsson (National Power Company of Iceland) and colleagues
India
Chhota Shigri			A.L. Ramanathan and colleagues (JNU)
Italy
Calderone	-940		Massimo Pecci and colleagues (CGI)
Campo Settentrionale	-840	-1856	R. Scotti and colleagues (SGL)
Careser	-1748	-2683	L. Carturan and colleagues (TeSAF/UNIPD)
Ciardoney	-1800		L. Mercalli and colleagues (SMI)
Fontana Bianca/Weissbrunnferner	-1312		R. Dinale, A. Di Lullo and colleagues (Hydrographisches Amt Bozen)
Grand Etret			V. Bertoglio and colleagues (Parco Nazionale Gran Paradiso)
La Mare (southern branch)	-654		L. Carturan (TeSAF/UNIPD)
Lunga/Langenferner	-1010		S. Galos and colleagues (IMGI & UI/HA)
Lupo	-973		R. Scotti and colleagues (SGL)
Malavalle/?彙eltalferner	-871		G. Franchi, G. Rossi and colleagues (UI/HA)
Pendente/Hangender Ferner	-1195		G. Franchi, G. Rossi and colleagues (UI/HA)
Suretta Meridionale	-1336	-2283	R. Scotti and colleagues (SGL)
Timorion			U. Morra di Cella and colleagues (ARPA)
Vedretta Occ. di Ries/Westlicher Rieserferner	-793		R. Dinale, A. Di Lullo and colleagues (Hydrographisches Amt Bozen)
Japan
Hamaguri Yuki	n.a.		K. Fujita and K. Fukui (GSES-NU, TCSM)
Kazakhstan
Ts. Tuyuksuyskiy	+561	-1113	N.E. Kassatkin, K.G. Makarevich (Inst. of Geogr. of Ministry of Educ. & Sc. of KZ)
Kenya
Lewis			R. Prinz and colleagues (IMGI)
Kyrgyzstan
Abramov	+380		M. Barandun and colleagues (DGUF & CAIAG)
Batysh Sook/ Syek Zapadnyi	-605		R. Kenzhebaev (CAIAG), Barandun (DGUF) and colleagues
Bordu	-450		Victor Popovnin (MGU), Rysbek Satylkanov and Bakyt Ermenbayev (TShMRC)
Glacier No. 354 (Akshiirak)	-399		M. Barandun, M. Kronenberg and colleagues (DGUF&CAIAG)
Glacier No. 599	-725		E. Azisov, R. Usubaliev (CAIAG)
Golubin	+287		E. Azizov, M. Barandun and colleagues (CAIAG, DGUF, GFZ)
Karabatkak	-390		V. Popovnin (MGU), R. Satylkanov and colleagues (TShMRC)
Sary-Tor	-790		V. Popovnin (MGU), R. Satylkanov and colleagues (TShMRC)
Nepal
Changri Nup			P. Wagnon and colleagues (IRD)
Mera			P. Wagnon and colleagues (IRD)
Pokalde			P. Wagnon and colleagues (IRD)
Rikha Samba	-334	-230	D. Stumm and colleagues (ICIMOD)
Yala	-610		D. Stumm and colleagues (ICIMOD)
New Zealand
Brewster	-1193		B. Anderson and colleagues (ARC & DGUO)
Rolleston	-1006		T. Kerr, H. Purdie and colleagues (NIWA)
Norway
Aalfotbreen	-635	-440	B. Kj?lmoen and colleagues (NVE)
Austdalsbreeen	-1050		H. Elveh? and colleagues (NVE)
Blomstolskardsbreen	+701		B. Kj?lmoen and colleagues (NVE)
Breidalblikkbrea
Engabreen	-226	+1250	H. Elveh? and colleagues (NVE))
Graafjellsbreen
Graasubreen	-415	-710	L. M. Andreassen and colleagues (NVE)
Hansebreen	-1304		B. Kj?lmoen and colleagues (NVE)
Hellstugubreen	-339	-600	L. M. Andreassen and colleagues (NVE)
Juvfonne
Langfjordjoekelen	-1664		B. Kj?lmoen and colleagues (NVE)
Nigardsbreen	+486	+590	B. Kj?lmoen and colleagues (NVE)
Remebesdalsskaaka	-386	+640	H. Elveh? and colleagues (NVE)
Rundvassbreen	-490		B. Kj?lmoen and colleagues (NVE)
Storbreen	-804	-520	L. M. Andreassen and colleagues (NVE)
Svelgjabreen	-7		B. Kj?lmoen and colleagues (NVE)
Peru
Artesonraju	-1598		Alejo Cochachin Rapre and colleagues (Autoridad Nacional del Agua, Unidad de Glaciolog? y Recursos H?ricos)
Yanamarey	-2505		Alejo Cochachin Rapre and colleagues (Autoridad Nacional del Agua, Unidad de Glaciolog? y Recursos H?ricos)
Russia
Djankuat	-730	-740	V. Popovnin and colleagues (MSU)
Garabashi	-980	-930	O.V. Rototayeva and colleagues (IGRAS)
Leviy Aktru
Maliy Aktru
No. 125 (Vodopadniy)
Spain
Maladeta	-843		G. Cobos Campos and colleagues (UPV)
Svalbard
Austre Broeggerbreen	-1450	-530	J. Kohler and colleagues (NPOLAR)
Austre Lovenbreen			E. Bernard and colleagues (CNRS - Univ. Franche Comt?
Hansbreen	-1078		Piotr Glowacki,Michal Petlicki and colleagues (Institute of Geophysics, Polish Academy of Sciences)
Irenebreen	-1468		Ireneusz Sobota and colleagues (Nicolaus Copernicus Polar Station)
Kongsvegen	-320	+30	J. Kohler and colleagues (NPOLAR)
Kronebreen/Holtedahlfonna	-160	+50	J. Kohler and colleagues (NPOLAR) (balances excl. calving)
Midtre Lovenbreen	-1200	-420	J. Kohler and colleagues (NPOLAR)
Waldemarbreen	-1773		Ireneusz Sobota and colleagues (Nicolaus Copernicus Polar Station)
Werenskiold	-1795		D. Ignatiuk (University of Silesia)
Sweden
Marmaglaciaeren	-370		P. Jansson and colleagues (Tarfala Research Station)
Rabots Glaciaer			P. Jansson and colleagues (Tarfala Research Station)
Riukojietna			P. Jansson and colleagues (Tarfala Research Station)
Storglaciaeren	-240		P. Jansson and colleagues (Tarfala Research Station)
Tarfalaglaciaeren			P. Jansson and colleagues (Tarfala Research Station)
Switzerland
Adler	-590		Huss, Salzmann, Leysinger-Vieli and colleagues (DGUF, GIUZ)
Allalin	-269	-1800	A. Bauder, M. Huss and colleagues (VAW)
Basodino	-979		G. Kappenberger and colleagues
Clariden	-424		U. Steinegger, G. Kappenberger and colleagues
Corbassiere	-450		A. Bauder, M. Huss and colleagues (VAW)
Corvatsch-S	-751		M. Fischer and colleagues (DGUF)
Findelen	-723		Huss, Salzmann, Leysinger-Vieli and colleagues (DGUF, GIUZ)
Gietro	-414	-1650	A. Bauder, M. Huss and colleagues (VAW)
Gries	-1191	-2450	M. Funk, A. Bauder and colleagues (VAW))
Hohlaub	-437		A. Bauder, M. Huss and colleagues (VAW)
Murtel	-462		M. Fischer and colleagues (DGUF)
Pizol	-699		M. Huss and colleagues (DGUF, VAW)
Plaine Morte	-248		M. Huss and colleagues (DGUF, VAW)
Rhone	-454		A. Bauder and colleagues (VAW)
Sankt Anna	-926		M. Fischer and colleagues (DGUF)
Schwarzbach	-1083		M. Fischer and colleagues (DGUF)
Schwarzberg	-164		A. Bauder, M. Huss and colleagues (VAW)
Sex Rouge	-144		M. Fischer and colleagues (DGUF)
Silvretta	-606	-1500	A. Bauder, M. Funk and colleagues (VAW)
Tsanfleuron	-226		M. Huss and colleagues (DGUF)
USA
Blue	-1520		M. Larrabee and colleagues (NCNP)
Columbia (2057)	-1180	-750	M. Pelto and colleagues (NCGCP)
Daniels	-640	-540	M. Pelto and colleagues (NCGCP)
Easton	-820	-260	M. Pelto and colleagues (NCGCP)
Eel	-400		M. Larrabee and colleagues (NCNP)
Emmons	-10		M. Larrabee and colleagues (NCNP)
Foss
Gulkana	-1510	-1510	S. O'Neel, L. Sass and colleagues (USGS)
Ice Worm	-780	-570	M. Pelto and colleagues (NCGCP)
Lemon Creek	-1200	-1480	M. Pelto and colleagues (JIRP)
Lower Curtis	-1550	-650	M. Pelto and colleagues (NCGCP)
Lynch	-1420	-320	M. Pelto and colleagues (NCGCP)
Nisqually			M. Larrabee and colleagues (NCNP)
Noisy Creek	-890		M. Larrabee and colleagues (NCNP)
North Klawatti	-1150		M. Larrabee and colleagues (NCNP)
Rainbow	-880	+510	M. Pelto and colleagues (NCGCP)
Sandalee	+110		M. Larrabee and colleagues (NCNP)
Sholes	-1520	+120	M. Pelto and colleagues (NCGCP)
Silver	+520		M. Larrabee and colleagues (NCNP)
South Cascade			E. Whorton and colleagues (USGS)
Sperry	+90	-430	D. Fagre, A. Clark and colleagues (USGS)
Taku	-780		M. Pelto and colleagues (JIRP)
Wolverine	-400	-1160	S. O'Neel, L. Sass and colleagues (USGS)
Yawning	-960	-640	M. Pelto and colleagues (NCGCP)

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[tcreeley]

I'm fairly sure you're misunderstanding the gist of my argument...I have never contested the climate changing or the thawing...the point is the "change" in not necessarily universal...What I question is how can "some" glaciers be growing while others are melting?...if the zealots were right the eastern seaboard should be under water by now...

...Natures way is a one of resilience...

Deserts have not always been deserts...when ice masses recede so do deserts (they becomes fertile)

I've never said we should not be spending money to clean up all forms of pollution and improve emissions etc...perfect filtering technology etc...I just think there should be more research done to show that there is natural activity that is cyclical in nature that contributes to climate changes and not hide the data...anything that does not mesh with the current AGW agenda is suppressed and kept out of sight. IMO Deforestation of rain forests is a major issue...

I understand it's a big stretch to compare physical laws to climate and to a lessor degree weather but even in nature it seems for every action there is a reaction...

BTW, FWIW... The recent freak cold air mass that set all kinds of records...had nothing to do with climate change...it was called a natural phenomenon...US cold snap was a freak of nature, quick analysis finds

What is said is global warming increases moisture in the air and that leads to more snowfall in some areas. The snowfall is increasing the size of 15 glaciers you said, but the global warming is decreasing the size of 121 glaciers was it - Meanwhile, the status quo is a consistent decrease in glaciers.

 

[turnkey4099]

Sorry to inform you...it's not BS...it a cold hard fact (no pun intended)...
...Now the 90% figure may no longer be spot on...but there are a good number of glaciers all over the world that ARE GROWING...!

And before you go shooting another messenger because you don't like the message hear this from a USGA.GOV site:


FS-001-03--Hubbard Glacier, Alaska: Growing and Advancing in Spite of Global Climate Change and the 1986 and 2002 Russell Lake Outburst Floods

I knew you were going to bring up Hubbard. However, that is a poor choice for you view. The Huibbard is known as a renigade, e.g. It grows when others shrinks and then shrinks when others grow. Known phenomna. Picking that makes the opposite point you are aiming at.

Back to the point. Where is your cite for 90% of them growing. Respectable cite please.

 

[EddieWalker]

Never heard of Hubbard. What is the reason for it being a renigade?

 

[turnkey4099]

You may be on to something... here's 15 glaciers that grew in 2015/2016... that's more than I thought...

(Kindly ignore the 121 that shrank)

From here... interesting reading.
latest glacier mass balance data world glacier monitoring service

2 Mass balance data

<snip for BW>

Goodness gracious. Maybe /Pine needs new glasses. He is seeing plus signs insstead of the minuses that are there.

 

[MossRoad]

Don't have a closed mind...
Don't shoot the messenger...

Top scientists start to examine fiddled global warming figures - Telegraph

That was from 2015 where university of alabama study showed cooling, contradicting the warming. Here's an update from 2017.... the alabama guys made huge errors.

More errors identified in contrarian climate scientists' temperature estimates | John Abraham | Environment | The Guardian

 

[MossRoad]

Almost got the best of me, there... lets leave the special olympics out of this...

 

[turnkey4099]

I'm fairly sure you're misunderstanding the gist of my argument...I have never contested the climate changing or the thawing...the point is the "change" in not necessarily universal...What I question is how can "some" glaciers be growing while others are melting?...if the zealots were right the eastern seaboard should be under water by now...

...Natures way is a one of resilience...

Deserts have not always been deserts...when ice masses recede so do deserts (they becomes fertile)

I've never said we should not be spending money to clean up all forms of pollution and improve emissions etc...perfect filtering technology etc...I just think there should be more research done to show that there is natural activity that is cyclical in nature that contributes to climate changes and not hide the data...anything that does not mesh with the current AGW agenda is suppressed and kept out of sight. IMO Deforestation of rain forests is a major issue...

I understand it's a big stretch to compare physical laws to climate and to a lessor degree weather but even in nature it seems for every action there is a reaction...

BTW, FWIW... The recent freak cold air mass that set all kinds of records...had nothing to do with climate change...it was called a natural phenomenon...US cold snap was a freak of nature, quick analysis finds

So you are admitting he 90% figure is wrong?

You are right, that cold snap should not even be mentioned in these threads...just as heat waves shouldn't. they are not climate, they are weather and end up being averaged with other records spanning years - 30 yeas is the usual amount mentioned to have a meaningful "trend"