Another Electrical / Subpanel / Welder outlet Q

[slowzuki]

Hello, I am installing an outlet for my welder and plasmacutter. It is a 50 amp outlet in a weather tight shielded box and is the normal Nema 50 with L1, L2 and ground connections, no neutral.

I have a fuse panel in the house, with 200 amp breaker entrance, house was supposed to be electric heat

I was recently told I will need an inline GFI unit for the outlet because it is outside and the GFI is 260$.

The other option I was told would be to move the outlet inside. This seems stupid to me as I will be running the welder in the same location, no matter were the plug is.

Anyone have some thoughts?

The GFI has no effect on electrocuting one's self via the welding leads as the transformer electrically isolates them.

Best I can figure is if the inside of the case shorted to L1 or L2, the GFI would trip. But the case is well grounded so it is kind of a moot point?
Ken

 

[Junkman]

Re: Another Electrical / Sub pan / Welder outlet Q

any time an electrical outlet is outside of the house it must be protected by a ground fault circuit breaker. I don't know how the Canadian codes differ from the US codes, but I am sure that they are similar. One trick that you could do would be to create a sub panel in the garage and then take the outlet off of there. If you create a sub panel, remember that you will have to isolate the neutral and the ground wires to be correct with the codes..... I just went through the same thing and it was a nightmare to comply with all the applicable upgrades that were required since the house was built 20 years ago. I did all the work myself because in CT it is allowed...... otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to afford it...... materials alone were over $1000.... and the contractors wanted $5000 + to do the work.......

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

This sounds like a question for Jerry (Inspector 507). I doubt he'll know Canada's codes but I'm sure he can tell you what will and won't work and the best way to go about it. He was very helpful to me when I was wiring my barn and later when wiring for my welder

 

[DavidJ]

<font color="blue"> The other option I was told would be to move the outlet inside. This seems stupid to me as I will be running the welder in the same location, no matter were the plug is. </font>

These rules don't cover everything but here's a shot at the reasoning. OK, I'm scareing myself! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

If you put the outlet inside you probably won't be welding while it's raining so the outlet doesn't get wet and leak current.

If the outlet is outside then even if you're not using it it's still energized leaving a potential hazard exposed, thus the need for GFI.

I know this doesn't make it any more sense but that's the way things are sometime.

 

[Inspector507]

Thanks Gary for the vote of confidence.
The NEC® (which is now an International Electrical Code®) would not require a GFCI on a 250 volt outlet in any configuration.
Now, do the codes in Canada parallel this? I have no idea. But anywhere in the US that follows the NEC®, a GFCI would not be needed.
Hope this helps

Jerry

 

[BrentB]

If you do have to install a GFCI, I just bought a subpanel with 50 amp GFCI packaged for use for a hot tub for $90 at Menards. They said to go Square D brand would cost over $100 for the breaker alone.

 

[Inspector507]

As slowsuki mentioned, the welder may be electrically isolated, secondary from primary, so the only way a GFCI protected outlet would help is, grabbing the prongs while you plug it in.
So, in my humble opinion, a GFCI would not help, not matter what it cost or where you bought it.

 

[slowzuki]

I will check the Canadian Electrical Code tomorrow, I think it is modeled after the NEC. Any clue on the location of the info re 250 V outlets don't require GFI? It would be appreciated!

Ken

 

[Inspector507]

Sure Ken,
Article 210-8 of the NEC® has all the requirements for GFCI protection for personnel. Article 210-8 says that all 120 volt, 15 and 20 ampere outlets (outdoors among some other places) shall have GFCI protection for personnel. Then if you look in Article 527, for temporary wiring, they added 30 ampere outlets, but no where does it mention a 50 ampere outlet.
Hope this helps

Jerry

 

[Inspector507]

What was I thinking........thats NEC® 210 . 8

 

[slowzuki]

Well, I checked out the CEC and it doesn't really bear any resemblance in arrangement. I noticed they have standardized to the US for hazardous zones and the typing of equipment for those areas.

The closest I found was docks/piers/wharves with outlets need GFI on 15/20 amp that are NOT used for ship to shore power.

And the section which talks about requiring GFI for outdoor outlets within 2.2 m of the ground has an opening statment that NEMA 15 and 20 receptacles are to be used for everything in the section.

I think the electrician will agree with me on this one.

Thanks!
Ken
NEMA Plug Styles

 

[Inspector507]

So, in essence it does parallel the NEC® in the fact that NEMA 15 and 20 outlets require GFCI protection.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color="blue"> "What was I thinking........thats NEC® 210 . 8" </font>

Uh... Yeah... I was just going to point that out. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[slowzuki]

Update on the outlet:

The electrician wouldn't let me use steel emt conduit to a plastic box, so I have to dig it all up and replace and reseal. I asked why and he said its just not done that way? I don't see why but whatever.

The fuse panel will have the dryer moved from a cartridge type fuse to a bayonet fuse so the welder will have a spot.

He also suggested replacing the whole panel with a breaker panel, well, 1000$ is a bit much just to plug the welder in a few times a year!

We'll see how it goes on Monday!
Ken

 

[Inspector507]

Why not just use a metal box on the EMT?
Also you could probably replace the breaker box your self for $200 or less.

 

[slowzuki]

Re the metal box, I couldn't find a deep metal surface mount box! I founds lots of shallow ones though, and they are pretty $$ compared to plastic.

I wish I could replace the panel! In NB home owners can't do any of their own wiring! It is retarded as some of the "electricians" don't know simple things like not bonding neutral and ground in subpanels.

We have wired our own basement but only because the electrician was nice enough to allow it if we called him to do the final hookup.

I know it is to stop the scary activities of some amateurs but it is really a pain for us who have 2 clues. I have no problem with someone inspecting my work as everyone makes mistakes but not permitting me to do it! Jeez!

 

[DavidJ]

<font color="blue"> The electrician wouldn't let me use steel emt conduit to a plastic box </font>

That seems a bit strange. We do it all the time here. All you have to do is make sure that all metal parts get bonded together and grounded.

 

[slowzuki]

Well we had a happy resolution and saw things through!

I now have a welding outlet. I started digging sunday and it went so well I spent 3 hours digging the rest of the way to the shop /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif now I should build a mini backhoe!

I put the outlet in the shop and used 8-3 direct burial wire with 40 amp fuses at the panel. The Canadian electrical code would have let me use 60 amp fuses due to the duty cycle on the welder but I didn't push it!

The 8-3 wire was used so that a sub panel could replace the welder outlet in the shop to free up the 120 v circuit feeding the lights etc.

Attached is a picture of the surface mount receptacle I purchased to replace the out door box.