another hiccup to going solar?

[MAX-24-Dean]

Paying solar user wholesale price for what they produce isn't quite right either. Why should they be paid the same price when they can't be depended on to produce? Think of yourself as a purchasing agent. You have two suppliers. One consistently provides what you need when you need it. The other shows up at random times to sell you his product whether you need it or not. Would you pay them both the same?

Doug in SW IA

Winner here!! Very good explanation.

 

[Diggin It]

As far as I'm concerned, utilities should be paying homeowners and businesses to install panels and wind turbines to help provide power rather than funding huge industrial generation facilities or funding them with government incentives. Or at least installing their own on customer provided land and rooftops. Work out deals like Cell towers ... provide the equipment and maintenance with a service exchange incentive.

The business model has to begin to change.

 

[Torvy]

So, the utilities have invested in the power production and distribution over many years and are fully capable of producing enough power, but you want to force them to pay for less efficient production methods? Much better to build nuclear facilities, they are more efficient and take up considerably less real estate.

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

As far as I'm concerned, utilities should be paying homeowners and businesses to install panels and wind turbines to help provide power rather than funding huge industrial generation facilities or funding them with government incentives. Or at least installing their own on customer provided land and rooftops. Work out deals like Cell towers ... provide the equipment and maintenance with a service exchange incentive.

The business model has to begin to change.

The only problem with a business model as you describe above, is everyones Utility rates would have to go up to a level to support the extra costs. The projected rate increases when I was working for a Utility was in the range of a 50% increase cost to customers to pay for something like this.
Please look at the Electric Kwh billing rates in California to see what this means (25 to 55 cents per Kwh). And thier rates are not quite high enough yet to cover the costs of all this green power.

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

So, the utilities have invested in the power production and distribution over many years and are fully capable of producing enough power, but you want to force them to pay for less efficient production methods? Much better to build nuclear facilities, they are more efficient and take up considerably less real estate.

Nuscale Power is a start up in safe modular, small scale power production. There first power plant is scheduled to go online in 2029 in Utah. They recently recieved thier approval from the Nuclear Regulatory Commision for thier "Small Modular Reactor".
As you can see by the 2029 date, building new nukes takes time.

 

[CoolTech]

As FYI, the new CA NEM 3.0 plan goes into effect after April 15, 2023. Applicants (like myself) have until April 15 to submit their application for NEM 2.0. Once the application is in, you can get on the NEM 2.0 plan and you will be grandfathered on this plan (like all other NEM 2.0 customers) for 20-years. I don't feel bad at all for SCE. Like other monopolies that I have been dealing with during the construction of our new home, they are very, very, poorly run - a far cry from a public company who actually has to COMPETE for business.

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

Another thread I just want to post in, before it gets closed.

Wholesale pricing is fair.

 

[cqaigy2]

This is what threw me and was just looking for clarification on where you stand.

The way this is worded, that they should get FULL credit....then you say "or at least wholesale price".....Not sure what you meant. The wholesale price is ALL they should get.

And honestly I can even understand paying LESS than wholesale to an extent.

ITs a business.....they have their current supplier already. If you are the new kid wanting to sell goods....and the best you can do is match my current supplier...I'd tell you to get lost. Gotta BEAT them. IE: Charge me less than wholesale for your electric.

The biggest problem with solar is its peak output is when the demand is the lowest.

Lowest demand during the day? I thought it was later at night, like when everybody is sleeping.

 

[Roric]

Let us just say I am selling a used car and I'm buying a new car.
State laws (or utility rules) will say I have to sell at wholesale and I have to buy at retail?

How about a fair or negotiated price for solar or wind arrived at with a fair accounting of the costs of transmission and delivery of power.

And not including what the CEO has to get, the board of directors have to get and what the shareholders get.

Perhaps a fair and more equitable way can be found?

regards,

R

 

[cqaigy2]

I don't see why utility couldn't pay a person for power and pay the going rate, whatever that is at the moment. They do that now, look at Texas. They have a number of providers and a person buys power from them. They don't have to care how expensive it is for you to produce, if you price it too high they don't buy it.

 

[lman]

Lowest demand during the day? I thought it was later at night, like when everybody is sleeping.

EVs are draining the grid at night.

 

[LD1]

Lowest demand during the day? I thought it was later at night, like when everybody is sleeping.

Ok.....maybe not lowest....but lower.

Most residential households use the most electric from about 6p-10p. Thats when everyone is home....cooking, TV, laundry, showers/hot water, lights, cranking up the thermostat if you set it back in the morning...etc.

However.....thats when residential solar output is starting to sharply decline for the evening down to nil when the sun sets.

Thats the point I was making

 

[LD1]

I don't see why utility couldn't pay a person for power and pay the going rate, whatever that is at the moment. They do that now, look at Texas. They have a number of providers and a person buys power from them. They don't have to care how expensive it is for you to produce, if you price it too high they don't buy it.

I have no issue with this.

However.....for the past 10 years ALOT of utilities have done 100% net metering. meaning if you use 2000kwh and make 2000kwh, their bill is $0......OR if they use 2000 and make 1000, they are only paying as if they used 1000.

Meaning that whatever electric was consumed.....they are getting FULL RETAIL PRICE as a credit and NOT at a WHOLESALE rate.

At a wholesale rate for generation of power.....(In my area thats about 50% of the bill).....If I used 2000 and made 2000....that should NOT be a $0 bill. Rather a bill at about 50% a normal bill. And that remaining 50%.....even though I generated as much as I used.....Is my charge for using the infrastructure of the grid as my battery

 

[Roric]

EVs are draining the grid at night.

Power availability at night goes down for other reasons: peaking plants shutdown,
not importing purchased power from afar...

EVs could be a resource to redistribute power during necessary times.

R

 

[3 Horse Ranch]

From the cost benefit side of solar, California's new policy will kill home solar. We had whole house solar in a large home in NW Washington. With full net metering, going solar was only marginally profitable. The payoff came at 15 to 20 years, allowing about 10 to 15 years before the solar panels needed replacing. When the panels need replacing, no doubt some of the power interface will have to be replaced also, winding the clock for effectively paying for solar power for another 10 to 15 years. Reduce the benefit by 80% and there is no economic benefit to home solar. Throw in the cost of batteries and the room set aside for them, and the shorter life of batteries, there isn't going to be much incentive in trading a utility bill for a solar panel/battery payment.
Where I moved to, the electricity is provided by a county PUD at about 60% cost per KWH of the previous home, so the decision is to not go solar.

 

[orezok]

I’m in SCE (SoCal). Here are the current rates for Time of Use. Yes, they are paying me $.35 for the time I am generating, BUT they charge me $.50 for my high use time. I hardly believe that they are losing money at these rate. The vast amount of my bill is during their gouge time. Give a little, take a LOT!

 

[Roric]

I have no issue with this.

However.....for the past 10 years ALOT of utilities have done 100% net metering. meaning if you use 2000kwh and make 2000kwh, their bill is $0......OR if they use 2000 and make 1000, they are only paying as if they used 1000.

Meaning that whatever electric was consumed.....they are getting FULL RETAIL PRICE as a credit and NOT at a WHOLESALE rate.

At a wholesale rate for generation of power.....(In my area thats about 50% of the bill).....If I used 2000 and made 2000....that should NOT be a $0 bill. Rather a bill at about 50% a normal bill. And that remaining 50%.....even though I generated as much as I used.....Is my charge for using the infrastructure of the grid as my batteryO in this equation

There should be other things in the equation:
Does the solar or wind producer have to support the executive and shareholders (over)compensation?
Does the alternative energy producer get to sell the REC's that are produced? (Renewable Energy Credits) Many car makers sell EVs at a loss
to utilize these.
Are the utilities and their in-place lobbyists and legal teams the ones to set the reimbursements?
A more equitable path should prevail.

I is nearly a quarter of the way into the 21st century, the horse and buggy whip industries should be allowing for change.

regards,

R

 

[Eagle1]

Wow .....
Residential
Service availability $1.018 per day + Energy charge 9.15 cents per kilowatt-hour plus a $20 membership/meter charge per month.
Comes out to around 11.2 cents per kwh on average.


No time of use rates

 

[MossRoad]

Cannibalistic socialism I meant.

A cabal is something else.

I'm kinda happy you cleared that up.

 

[4570Man]

As far as I'm concerned, utilities should be paying homeowners and businesses to install panels and wind turbines to help provide power rather than funding huge industrial generation facilities or funding them with government incentives. Or at least installing their own on customer provided land and rooftops. Work out deals like Cell towers ... provide the equipment and maintenance with a service exchange incentive.

The business model has to begin to change.

I can tell from reading this and more of your post that you’ve never ran a business or worked in a position that dealt with business decisions. They’re still going to need the industrial generation sites and they’re still going to need adequate capacity to handle the grid. You can throw billions of dollars at solar and wind farms. It doesn’t help the fact that solar is limited to sunny conditions and wind isn’t reliable either. Why wouldn’t they just put the money towards the industrial plants that they still need? If you have a solution that would actually work to eliminate the need for the industrial plants I’m sure they would love to hear it but currently that doesn’t exist especially at a reasonable price.