another new guy with questions (long)

dwkdnvr · Dec 19, 2005

Hi,
I'm pretty new here and to 'heavy' equipment in general, but I've read pretty thoroughly here and so hopefully I'm not as clueless as I was.

My wife and I have 40 acres of foothill/mountain land in southern Colorado, of which ~15 or is useful (ie flat-ish), the rest being down the side of a canyon. Fully 'wooded', although the bulk of the cover on the upper flat/usable section is small-ish pinon, juniper and pine, with larger Ponderosas mixed in but they're mosly down the slope on the north side. Land is dry and rocky (see catsco's septic tank thread - I'm maybe 150 miles south of him so it's likely to be similar).

We have come to the realization that our original 'get an ATV to help with clearing the land' idea was a bit inadequate. We're looking to build a cabin/house mostly with our own labor, plus the typical support items - driveway, paths around the property etc. Being a mountain style propety, large-scale land clearing isn't in the plan - we will leave it basically untouched aside from the clearing required for house, septic etc, plus basic fire mitigation.

I expect tasks will be pretty typical construction tasks
- removing trees + stumps
- leveling/grading site and paths, including moving rocks
- leveling/grading driveway (plus maybe some on the road, but that's probably outside the scope of a PT)
- lifting/carrying materials, pallets etc
- digging - trenches, posts/piers, maybe even septic as inspired by catsco
- general construction help (lifting, dragging, supporting etc)
- plowing down the road, and after the inevitable 'unexpected' spring/fall storms

So, obviously a CUT is not the optimal tool - not agile enough, and lacks the quick-change tooling and flexibility that is great during construction (forks, bucket, forks, backhoe, bucket etc etc). The PT would seem to be pretty much ideal, my slight reservation being whether our tasks lie within the design envelope of the machine, and whether I can afford all the 'necessary' (no, really honey) attachments. It leads me to the question of what the 'true' competition of the PT is - to me it seems that the Compact Utility Loaders like the Toro Dingo or the Gehl AL20DX are more direct competitors, at least for this list of tasks. Has anyone done a decent comparison of a PT to these?

If we go with the PT, it would probably be a 425 (wife insists on the ROP), and we'd be looking at the mini-hoe (essential), forks, bucket and blade (specifics tbd on both), and maybe other 'luxuries' if budget allows (trencher, auger and maybe cement mixer). The gallery of projects in this forum would seem to indicate that this combination would put us in a good position to succeed, but well, I felt compelled to post anyway /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I guess the questions are:
- Is the 425 up to the task?
- Is there realistically anything out there for less that would fit the bill? (looks like $15k by the time the 425 package is delivered. Given that we were thinking ~4k for an ATV, this will require significant re-planning)
- Would some combination of purchase/rental on a CUL have a prayer of being viable, given that we'll be working weekends and have a 200 mile 'commute' to the property?

BTW - this is a great forum. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading through old threads seeing projects and even following the OT digressions. There is a very good 'vibe' here that is a big part of the 'sales pitch' that has me considering the PT.

I value any feedback and opinions - thanks
Doug.

Rip · Dec 20, 2005

Doug, welcome to the forum!

Catsco can let you know how many times he may have wished for an even larger machine, but certainly a PT-425 can do much of what you are looking to get done if you take your time. After a few initial frustrations and the inevitable learning curve I think he is quite pleased with his machine in a similar environment and range of usage.

I am at at 8000 ft near Bailey and have a much larger PT-1845 and there are many times I am using all it has got and wish for more.

I would say that a Toro Dingo type machine is not going to do much of what you want. The slope capability of any PT model will greatly exceed any size or brand of CUT. A Skid Steer Loader (SSL) can do a good job at some of your tasks but is even more slope limited than a CUT.

For some of your one-time heavy tasks you may be better off hiring out the job. Ask around the local area (of your property) for a good excavator. A good operator can do in a few hours what a poor one would take two days on and be cheaper overall than you trying to rent and learn how to operate a new piece of equipment.

Others will chime in, but I think you would be making a good choice with a PT-425. It is rugged, versitile and well able to perform a wide range of tasks over the long term.

For a 40 acre property you may still want an ATV type machine, and I can recommend a Polaris Ranger 4x4 or 6x6 utility machine. These are both real work horses as well as fast and fun. They carry three people and can haul 1000 lbs in the bed and go up to 40 mph. Only a bit more $$ than a full size ATV and much more practical.

BTW a good used/refurbished 20 ft cargo container makes an excellent secure on-site storage facility for tools, building suples and even the PT-425. You will want to keep it even after you finish your cabin/house. A number of places in Denver, CSprings and Pueblo have them and will deliver to your site.

Good luck and Merry Christmas!!

MossRoad · Dec 20, 2005

Welcome to TBN! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bbabineau · Dec 20, 2005

Doug

I too am like you - still not the owner of a PT but planning to make a visit to Tazewell in January if the weather holds up. I have been following this site for the last several months in order to help in my decision first to buy a PT and second which one. While financially the 425 makes a lot of sense and is probably the one I will ultimately buy for my 3 acre property there are many things that I want to do that make me think I should buy the 1430 which has 50% more lifting capability, more torque at wheel motors etc. I know that before I get done with attachments I may be $8k more than a 425 but I am not totally convinced that the 425 will do all of the things that I want to do with ease.
I will be building a small bridge (8 x 16), an enclosed garden (40 x 60) access roads (250 ft) trench for water and electricity of 600 ft, tree and stump removal, ditch cleaning and then moving lots of rock for landscape.
I guess I subscribe to the diesel mentality for a work vehicle and thus lean to the 1430 but when reading all of the posts in this forum I continually think the 425 would do everything I need.
Such a dilemma - I hope my trip to Tazewell will help me clear up my confusion or I know I will come home with a 1430.
Bob

IslandTractor · Dec 20, 2005

Doug,

I am a PT admirer but not owner. Just to be clear what my thoughts and experience are based on.

It seems a lot of the work you are doing initially is digging with a backhoe type tool or grading/box blading. Although the PTs are fantastic machines I don't think they excel in either of those jobs compared to a CUT TLB. You seem to indicate that you will only be working on the flatter portions of your land which is another factor; no doubt the PTs are better than CUTs on slopes.

The PT425 mini hoe is at best a compromise and certainly doesn't compare to a true backhoe in capability. No doubt you can dig with the thing, many posts on this forum attest to that, but it is a lot easier to sit in one place and move a boom around than to drive your whole vehicle every time you want to take a bite and then again to dump it. PT makes the 2425 but that seems to be a specialty machine that lacks some of the better features of the 425 such as stability on slopes (ugly mother too /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif).

For leveling and grading the standard implement is a box blade. You can add one to the PT but you'll be driving backwards to use it which could get old quickly. If that is a limited task then I wouldn't worry but if you have acres to box blade you might reconsider. A CUT does that job pretty well.

Now the truth: I yearned for a PT425 for over a year whilst lurking on this board. They are fantastic utility machines and once you get your land destumped and graded I am sure that the 425 would be every bit as useful and efficient as any CUT, probably more so. However, your initial site development tasks, in my opinion, do not play to the true strengths of the articulated tractors.

If I were in your shoes I would consider 1) hiring out the initial stump removal and land grading then get a 425, 2) buy a used CUT TLB to do the initial work then decide if you want to keep it or trade for a 425. 3) what I did, reluctantly, was to just buy the TLB because the economics worked better (cost of shipping and recent price increases on the PT line kinda put the cabosh on my PT dreams).

A nicely kitted out 425 with shipping will set you back about $17-18K. That is about what a new 20hp diesel CUT TLB from Kubota or Kioti will cost, JD a bit higher. Resale on the CUTs is far better than the PTs unfortunately if that is a consideration. Local dealer support might be an issue for you which tends to favor Kubota or JD based solutions. TBN support is fantastic for the PT however so long as you have the ability to turn a wrench and ideally have internet capabilities at your property.

I don't in any way mean to talk you out of the PT425, again I am a real fan, it just seems that your particular initial land projects might be best accomplished by alternative strategies.

Good luck.

KentT · Dec 20, 2005

I chose to do IslandTractor's Option 1 -- hiring out the initial clearing and driveway construction, then use the PT-425 for all the finish work and maintenance.

Dozers and excavators can do in hours what it would take weeks to do with either a PT or a traditional TLB. Also IMO, a traditional TLB isn't very practical at all if you're going to be working on slopes.

If you're interested, I have pictures of clearing my lot at:

http://www.simpletractors.com/subsite/major_site_clearing.htm

I also want to correct/expand on one point IslandTractor made regarding the PT minihoe. Do not confuse how a PT minihoe works with one mounted on a skidsteer. Because the PT articulates, you can use the minihoe for digging trenches or small holes WITHOUT moving the tractor between bucketsful of dirt... you just turn the steering wheel to articulate the tractor 45 degrees to one side or the other and dump the bucket... With a skidsteer, you'd have to drive out of position, dump the bucket, and drive back. With a PT you do not. However, because of the limited swing of the bucket via articulation, and the short length of the arm, you will need to do more skidsteer-like maneuvering if you are digging a large hole.

PT minihoes are actually faster than either a skidsteer OR a traditional TLB when it comes to trenching. You can quickly articulate to dump the bucket, and back up without having to deal with outriggers/stabilizers, moving to a different seat to move forward, etc. In fact, they trench best by setting the bucket, then backing up, then articulating to dump, then repeat...

Phils · Dec 20, 2005

Welcome to the PT part of TBN Doug.

We too have 40 acres with some of it a little steep. I've been working on the place for almost 30 years and only wish I had my 422 for longer than the year that I have had it. It would've helped with much of the work over the years.

As has been pointed out in earlier posts, PTs are adequate for many jobs but excel in few. I used to own a Case backhoe and it did a much better and easier job of digging than my PT, but the PT is much better than a shovel (since I haven't had the Case for 15 years). The LMB is far superior to a wheelbarrow. The stump grinder is WAY faster than waiting for the stump to rot away. I wouldn't have ordered the pallet forks except for the recommendations from members here, but I'm sure glad I did and use them frequently (I now keep my fifthwheel hitch on a pallet, for instance, and save my back when loading it). The brushhog has changed the way our entire place looks for the better, and made us much more firesafe.

I recently got the box blade and the grapple bucket.

I had 67 tons of gravel delivered a couple of weeks ago, much of which I needed to repair a long neglected 1/4 mi driveway. Using the box while backing is not ideal but it does an excellent job of leveling. My driveway is now smooth and pretty like it's never been.

Since most of what I've been doing these last few decades is brush removal, the grapple bucket has been the best tool I could've imagined.

My soil isn't as rocky as yours and is easy to work with. Other than the septic tank hole, I don't know of anything I've done that I couldn't have done with the PT. The septic tank hole would've required "ramping" down into it since the hoe's reach is limited (as described by Catsco). The Case made it easy.... but if I'd have had the PT then, I'd have dug it using the little green guy. I bought the Case because of the septic but found it too big and topheavy to use on most of my land.

The PT is a great "landscaping" machine and that's what I needed. At first I was going to get an ATV (like the Gator) to help me get chores done. Then I thought a CUT would be better. Then I discovered TBN, bought the book, learned that a CUT wasn't my best option, and ended up here with the PT crew.

All that AND the PT can be carried in my pickup.

One other factor was my BIL bringing a skid-steer up one time to "play". It was ok but everywhere you made a turn, it churned up the ground. Unsatisfactory for a "landscape" machine.

The last factor was budget. Initially I had but $12K to work with, then another $3K this year. For my outlay I have a capable yard machine that would have cost at least double if I'd gone with other machines to do all the jobs the PT will do. It sounds like you have needs similar to ours.

One other note: cargo containers aren't burglar-proof and be easily broken into. We have a couple at a nearby archery range and have lost a lot of stuff to thieves. We have modified them to be much more secure but still never know until we get there whether our things remain. If I was coming to work weekends from a few hundred miles away, I wouldn't be comfortable all week if my PT was in one. Attachments would be fine as I don't think they'd fetch much on the drug-exchange market since they fit PTs only.

Phil

BobRip · Dec 20, 2005

Just a few additional comments. When you get your PT, be aware that it will take time to get skilled at using it. I have bought several attachements that initially I thought were marginal and with a little practice became very satisfied with. Even the PT422 initially had limits that were easily overcome with a little knowledge and/or practice. Read the threads here on using attachments and that will be a big help. It sounds like you have already done a lot of that.
If I were in your shoes, I would buy the 425, get most of the attachments that you think you need upfront, even if you have to borrow the money (something I hate to do) to save on shipping. Start learning how to use it and try some of the "difficult" task. This will build your skill level. Then hire out the ones that take too much time or just exceed what the PT will do. If possible watch the guy who does the task to learn how to do them. Somebody says on here something like "The best feeling in life is doing something that everyone says is impossible".
That said, I don't recommend a PT if you are not handy with a wrench, unless you can find someone local who can do the work. A good small engine repair shop who knows the Robins-Subaru engine, and a hydraulics shop. By all means take the class in Tazewell that PT gives for free.

Good luck,

Bob Rip

pajoube · Dec 20, 2005

Welcome,
There have been some very good suggetions already given so I will only add one.
Look up one of my old threads in this forum called Why I Bought a 425 by PAJOUBE. It will show many pictures of what the 425 can do.
Good luck and keep us informed of what you end up doing.
PJ

dwkdnvr · Dec 21, 2005

Wow - thanks for all the input. Lots to digest, and more than I can respond to at the moment - I'll try to elaborate later in the day.

First, our plan is closer to IslandTractors #1 scenario than might have been clear from my original post. We're fully expecting to bring in people to do the 'big jobs', and aren't expecting the PT (or tractor) to do everything. Part of the problem is that we don't yet have a site development plan (there are 3 or 4 choices for building sites depending on what views etc we want to optimize), and until we decide where to build, large-scale work doesn't make sense. So, the PT will handle the preliminary smaller scale stuff (parking, tent/trailer pad, initial storage building etc), but we'd plan on bringing in a dozer/excavator to handle the building site/driveway/foundation once we had a plan.

Rip - thanks for the suggestion on the shipping containers, it might be something to look at. Our initial plans for shelter/storage on the site are in flux at the moment. Something more garage-like would be preferable, but has a much larger time/effort factor. BTW - I did email catsco offline since he does in fact seem to be very close to my situation in both his physical environment and range of use of the PT. It sounds like he's in temporary trailer accomodations at the moment, and so he hasn't had a chance to reply in depth yet.

Pajoube - your long thread was definately a contributing factor to identifying a PT as our primary candidate. You've done some great stuff.

bbabineau - I sympathize with the desire to move to the 1430. I'd also prefer diesel, and find it far too easy to imagine uses for the extra lift capacity and more so the height. However, in our case this is as much a journey as a destination, so slightly lower productivity is maybe OK as long as we can get it done. Unless some kind soul donates another $10k to our kitty, the 425 is really as high up the chain as we can go. As RobRip pointed out, we're trying to do this with as little borrowed money as possible and even a 425 would require some level of financing.

The trip to Tazewell is not currently on the slate, but might be something I consider. I'm not scared of the maintenance burden, but I am more from the 'book learning' camp at the moment than the 'real world experience', so some training might be beneficial.

There are a couple other points I was going to hit, but I'll have to try to do that later. Thanks again for all the input.

IslandTractor · Dec 21, 2005

With your caveats, the 425 sounds like your baby. Go for it. And good luck.

toolz_not_toyz · Dec 21, 2005

Seems to me a 425 or 1430 would be your best bets. I would just hire out any of the major work because that way you will get a skilled operator that can bring a really big machine.

While the 425 is definitely capable of doing a lot, as others have pointed out, I think it may work against you if you try to take on too many large jobs for too many hours. First of all, you're going to spend a heck of a lot of time when something could get done much more quickly with larger equipment. Second of all, you need to consider that no machine has an unlimited MTBF. Save you PT for the smaller jobs and ongoing maintenance.

One more thing. When determining your budget do not forget to take shipping into account. From PT to Seattle was about $1800 just last month. That's for my 425, and three pallets of accessories.

Spiffy · Dec 21, 2005

Always looking into the future when that extra ft or few hundred pounds of lift could come into play, I'd second the 1430.

However, even then, you need the right tool for the job to achieve major jobs in a timely manor [i.e. my 2445 is a little ***** cat compared to many jobs that just beg for machines bigger than 10 ton and 100hp; on the other hand, let's see them dig a trench inside an existing barn with 8ft doors.], so maybe the 425 is the bang for the buck.

OK...confused myself...what was my point?....How about maybe it can come down to either a gas or diesel preferance or just purely how much the accountant will allow!

Oh, BTW PT guys, check out this thread:
NH Thread

FOURTEEN · Dec 22, 2005

(I value any feedback and opinions) 

 Buy a 90% machine with 90% attachments! Most likely a PT-425. I mean that if 90% of the time you will be lifting less than 700#, don't buy a PT-1430 to lift 1000# once in a while - instead make two 500# loads. The MinHoe on the PT-425 will dig most of what the PT-1430 will, it just takes a little longer. Most people buy vans even though once in a while they could use a bus!

With practice it is absolutely amazing how much work, and how quickly, a PT-425 can perform.

And after those few 'big' jobs are done, you will enjoy the small size, the light weight, the minimal collateral damage, the lower cost, and the nimbleness of the PT-425!

PS: Sometimes a lot of the fun is seeing what that little machine can do, or finding a way for it to do it!!

PPS: I don't believe that any homeowner/landscaper would ever wear out a gas engine in a PT! And if they did, by that time the rest of the PT would most likely need replacement too!

tracdoc · Dec 22, 2005

The 90% rule. I like it /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Merry Christmas to all my fellow TBNers

J_J · Dec 22, 2005

Have you considered the used machines on the Power-Trac web site. You just might find more bang for your bucks. Trailer set and all. I found a used setup, and could not pass up the deal I got. $37.000 if new for $6.500 Have had very few problems with any of it. Your budget will tell you what you can live with. I have a Kubota hydrostatic 4 wheel drive tractor, but I only use it to drag the road. You can always sell if you aren't satisfied with the performance, but if you can get the right size for the task at hand, you will just sit back and smile thinking I'm glad I got the right size and not settled on something less.

dwkdnvr · Dec 22, 2005

( Have you considered the used machines on the Power-Trac web site. You just might find more bang for your bucks. Trailer set and all. )

Absolutely. In fact, if I had a vehicle that could deal with the ~7k GVWR of the trailer kit, I'd be seriously considering one of the 2425 packages that are up now. I'll continue to watch the site, although the logistics of cross-country shipping might make things difficult.

dwkdnvr · Dec 22, 2005

(
Buy a 90% machine with 90% attachments! Most likely a PT-425. I mean that if 90% of the time you will be lifting less than 700#, don't buy a PT-1430 to lift 1000# once in a while - instead make two 500# loads. )

Well, I think this is basically the philosophy that most non-pro's have to adopt. There are always two categories, the 'manageable' stuff, and the 'big stuff'. The challenge is to choose the tool that minimizes the 'big stuff', while not busting your budget. Even after checking out the BX23 level stuff based on IslandTractors post, I come away feeling that for us in our situation the 425 is the way to reduce the 'big stuff' to a minimum.

Of course, then there's the question of what attachments to get.......

J_J · Dec 22, 2005

In stead of shipping, a 24 ft Ryder or U-Hall truck should be sufficient to carry whatever you purchase. or pull a trailer package. Also, if there is a rental place that carries the PT in your area, you just might rent one and try before you buy, or visit with someone from this forum that has a PT.

toolz_not_toyz · Dec 23, 2005

( In stead of shipping, a 24 ft Ryder or U-Hall truck should be sufficient to carry whatever you purchase. or pull a trailer package. )

AFAIK U-Haul's policy doesn't permit tractors to be carried inside their trucks. I got by just dandy with three pallets of stuff inside a 14ft truck and then using a 5x9 ramp trailer to haul the PT 425. Everything just fit so if you're buying more or getting a bigger PT you'll need something else. See the following thread for information on my delivery experience.

Picking Up the PT from Overnite

As for the size of equipment. I think for 40 acres I'd be leaning towards a 1430 if budget allows. But again, it all depends on your needs. Clearly, no PT will match the dirt moving ability of a large CAT.