Another Synthetic Oil Question

[sixdogs]

Hey Mr. Cox, my JD 5105 did the same thing, so I removed the sump filter and it was completely clogged! I sprayed it out with high pressure hose, then hit it with low heat hair dryer till bone dry, then replaced it...and POOF - like new!

Where is the sump filter and how is it removed? How id you do this? How many hours on your tractor? Sounds like you might be on to something.

 

[Redneck in training]

The low viscosity of synthetic oil is a double-edged sword. If you use your tractor often it is OK. But if your tractor is sitting in the garage for few weeks between uses synthetic oil flows down, as oposed to more viscous minerl oil, and leaves bare metal exposed to moisture in the engine. I just learned about that while reading about oil for aircraft engines. Some engines were switched to synthetic and suffered excessive wear while others lasted longer. It was all traced to how often the airplane was flown. If I find the article I will post link to it.

 

[Rebel]

The low viscosity of synthetic oil is a double-edged sword. If you use your tractor often it is OK. But if your tractor is sitting in the garage for few weeks between uses synthetic oil flows down, as oposed to more viscous minerl oil, and leaves bare metal exposed to moisture in the engine. I just learned about that while reading about oil for aircraft engines. Some engines were switched to synthetic and suffered excessive wear while others lasted longer. It was all traced to how often the airplane was flown. If I find the article I will post link to it.

If you can find that link I'd like to see it, TIA

After reading this (Warning it's long, but good)...>>>
FerrariChat.com - FAQ: Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)

"Some people have said they use thicker oils because they only use their cars every 2, 3 or 4 weeks. They are afraid that thin oils will fall off the engine parts and result in a lack of lubrication at startup. Oil on the surface of parts does not lubricate. It is the FLOW of oil between parts that lubricates" Quoted from the article by Dr Haas.

I'm starting to think thinner is better.

 

[DWCox]

Hey Mr. Cox, my JD 5105 did the same thing, so I removed the sump filter and it was completely clogged! I sprayed it out with high pressure hose, then hit it with low heat hair dryer till bone dry, then replaced it...and POOF - like new!

The sump filter was clean, except for a few small shavings after break-in. It turns out that a mud-dauber had plugged my air breather tube and I didn't know it. I only realized it when I went to dump the fluid and only about a quart or so came out. I knew the fluid was at proper level, so when I opened the fill cap I heard a whoosh sound and the rest of the four gallons came out. With new fluid, filter, and a clear breather tube, all the symptoms (including a hesitation in bucket roll) are now cheered up.

 

[DieselPower]

If you can find that link I'd like to see it, TIA

After reading this (Warning it's long, but good)...>>>
FerrariChat.com - FAQ: Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)

"Some people have said they use thicker oils because they only use their cars every 2, 3 or 4 weeks. They are afraid that thin oils will fall off the engine parts and result in a lack of lubrication at startup. Oil on the surface of parts does not lubricate. It is the FLOW of oil between parts that lubricates" Quoted from the article by Dr Haas.

I'm starting to think thinner is better.

There is some good info there but much of it is opinion with no certified test data. One thing he seems to miss completely in his comparison of oils is that the oil itself is only one small part of any lubricant. The additive package plays a equal if not more important role in it's performance, durability and protection. If you were to buy 4 different viscosity oils from the same manufacturer and the same exact brand the additive package will be different in each one. Even the line between synthetic and conventional is being blurred. Technology in the lubricants industry is growing by leaps and bounds these day's. Today's oil is definitely not your fathers oil. One point synthetic advocates have jumped up and down about for years is that synthetics don't "shear down" like conventional oils do because they do not need any or as many VII (viscosity Index Improvers) as conventionals do. That may have been true a few years ago but even this field of tribology has advanced quite far. The polymers no longer need be straight chain molecules that coil up when cold. Additive manufacturers like Lubrizol and Infineum (two of the largest raw additive manufacturers in the world to the lubricants industry) now produce VII polymers in many shapes like multi-point stars that are all but shear proof. Don't be surprised if in the next few years highly modified conventionals start outperforming synthetics. One advantage conventionals have always had over synthetics is their solvency properties to additives. It's just easier to suspend more additives in conventional base stock than in synthetic. I won't even delve into the adverse effects of low traction coefficient synthetics and increased diesel cam galling.

When it comes to picking the correct viscosity it's best to stick with manufacturers recommendations. Most will have multiple viscosity's to pick from depending on operating temperature ranges. Pick the lowest viscosity suitable for your climate conditions and also make sure it has the correct API rating and certification.

 

[Redneck in training]

Rebel,
The article about synthetic oil running down exposing bare metal to moisture was in the printed "Flying" (I think) magazine few months ago. When I get home I will look for it.

I set up control system for large compressors and steam turbins for living. Even though it isn't my expertise I know that you can't start the machine with cold oil. The roation machinery guy explained to me that the shear forces in bearings will break the molecules and thus destroy lubricity of the oil with consequent catastrophic failure of bearings of the machine. Therefore all big machines have minimum oil temperature interlocked to start permissive.

I also agree that the best is to use class of oil recommended by the manufacturer. Be it mineral or synthetic.

I also think that the time is comming when we will not need to change oil but just filter it and add what was lost. When I was young we had to change oil in car transmissions and axles. Today they are filled for life. The envirnmental considerations might force the such development.

 

[DieselPower]

It's interesting you mention "will not need to change oil but just filter it and add what was lost". That day may in fact be closer than we realize. In the heavy OTR trucking filter industry you can now buy premium filters that have a additive replacement block incorporated into it.

 

[Redneck in training]

I just recalled another fact about large turbine or compressor oil. Each machine contains several cubic yards of oil. The issue isn't just the expense of acquisition or disposal. In order to change oil the machine would have to be stopped and since it is a moneymaker in a plant such as refinery they will not do it for several years. There are companies or large plants might have their own lab that analyze the oil and report what needs to be done. Then they just add additives and oil that was lost. Guy from such lab told me that they work a lot with trucking and railroad companies analyzing oil to determine when the oil change is necessary. He said that most modern oil last much longer than customary oil change interval.

 

[DieselPower]

I just got back a UOA from one of my customers a few weeks ago for turbine oil. I think they were around 11,500 hours on the oil. The capacity of the unit is around 6,000 gallons of oil. They run a vacuum dehydration tower and electrostatic varnish cleaning tower along with media type filtration systmes in a kidney loop. It's amazing how long oil will last with proper filtration and a good UOA program.

 

[ihookem]

If synthetic flows down then molybedelum should help a lot. Or maybe a 50% mix of syn would help. I think we are already here when it comes to never changing oil. I know a guy that bought a new 57 Chevy and put a toilet paper roll filter on it and drove it 110k mi. and never changed the oil. I asked him what happened then? Then the engine was junk. This was 50 years ago. His son is running a 250 ford diesel with Amsoil 5w30 hdd and has 88k mi. on it. The oil is good cause if it wasn't the engine wouild die in a hurry. He uses Amsoil filters and no bypass. I have 28k on my Amsoil and was good at 18k with a uoa to prove it. I am sure it will be good at 35k mi. America needs to get off this change oil kick. I know a guy with a junky old car that changed every 2500 mi. I know lots of people that change at 3k.