another wiring question

[Anonymous Poster]

I have an old house. As I remodel each room, I update the wiring. My question is can wiring be run in the crawl space under the house? What wire would you use, same as in the wall or direct burial?

 

[Inspector507]

Same as in the wall if protected from the weather, which I would assume it is.

 

[gws]

DEPENDS? What will your code allow? Is it a craw space exposed to the outside or not?

 

[Anonymous Poster]

To be quite frank, the wiring in this house is so bad that I don't want to get an inspector involved. I don't have a boat-load of money to dump on it right now. I remodel one room at a time as money allows. I replace the room circuit back to the breaker panel, 15 amp breaker 14 guage wire less than 50 feet total run. Right now I only have 100 amp service and the grounding system is ground to neutral at the panel. No room in the panel for a grounding bus. Near future project is to get a 200 amp service and panel, I will get a licenced electrician for that. For now I would like to get the interior wiring in a better condition.

 

[beenthere]

Follow the National Code, and then when you get the licensed electrician, he will not have to re-do what you are putting in now - if you are lucky. The code continues to change (code writers have to keep adding things just to protect their jobs), so you may not be lucky.
Now, if your house burns down, and the insurance inspectors find out you have not been following the codes, they may use it as an excuse to not pay. This is my primary motivation to follow the code, and get the work inspected. Good luck on the remodel.

 

[BB_TX]

<font color=blue>(code writers have to keep adding things just to protect their jobs)</font color=blue>
Actually the National Electric Code (NEC) is produced and maintained by a committee of unpaid volunteers under the direction of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA). These volunteers (or their companys) foot the bill for their time and travel expenses to attend annual or semi-annual meetings. The code is updated when new technology or new experience data warrants a change in the code requirements. I am not on the NEC committee, but am on a different NFPA committee. We really don't make new rules just to keep people off balance./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Sorry for getting off the basic subject./w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

 

[gws]

NEC isnt the problem. Those codes are reasonable. Its the uplifts that local cities add that are the hassle.

 

[gws]

I didnt say get an inspector involved. I said what does local code require.

What I ended up doing what to get a 200amp box. mount it up and run all new circuits to it. The 200amp box was fed from a 100amp circuit on the orginal panel. This way I didnt have to pull out the wires when I went to a new box. When you have only one wire in the old box you know your done.

 

[beenthere]

Okay, not to protect their "paid" jobs, but to stay active on the volunteer committees (job). If they didn't keep adding things (and for a variety of reasons and motivations), the committee would be looked at as not doing anything. A committee not doing anything will be dropped or the members replaced. I've been there, done that, and know the routine. Those meetings are fun to attend, get to do some in-depth thinking, being creative (look out here), and get into some good, heated debate. Who can we protect today?

I don't mean to imply that the committees are wrong, just the nature of the beast.

 

[bgott]

If you are doing repairs I believe they just have to meet the original code. I wouldn't be re-wiring, I'd be repairing. Even if I had to replace all the wiring to repair it. I think anything you update has to meet current code. From what we did when I worked for an electrical company and what I've read the NEC also gives you a certain flexibility when it comes to repairs and upgrades. If you have a foundation with crawl space that is inaccessible you can get away with more than if you have a pier and beam house ("house up on blocks") with open sides. Kids under the house and dogs can be hard on wiring. I would check and see if PVC conduit is legal in your area. It's fairly cheap and easy to use. I've been told by a licensed electrician that you're not supposed to run NM in conduit because the covering on it is considered a raceway and then the next licensed electrician told me that it's O.K. Direct burial is good only if you bury it. I'd go with 12 ga. instead of 14. If you ever want to run a larger load on the circuit you're limiting yourself and you're not saving that much by running 14. You really need to figure out a way to run a ground to your box, it helps stabilize the voltage and if you ever lose your neutral it'll let your breakers do their job. Do you have problems with your electronics and blow a lot of lightbulbs? These are signs that your neutral has a bad connection. Blown and badly connected neutrals are why they required a separate ground in the first place. If you want to do some more reading go to www.electrical-contractor.net and go through the forums. I don't know if they'll answer homeowner questions but I have had a lot of questions answered just by reading the forums and archives.

Disclaimer: I'm not a licensed electrician and you should ask a licensed electrician familiar with your codes these questions. My response is for entertainment purposes only!

Lassitude: Physical or mental tiredness.
That looked like the right word last night, looked funny today. I guess I was showing lassituse! /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color=blue>"My response is for entertainment purposes only!"</font color=blue>

I, for one, was certainly entertained. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

All kidding aside, when I wire anything, I run 12/3. Again, it's not much more money than 12/2 and, if I ever want to add another switch somewhere, the wiring is already there.

 

[gws]

Nice to have that extra wire, but wouldnt pass code down in the big city.,

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

No kidding? I can't imagine why an extra red-coated wire in the romex sheathing would be a problem even when it's not needed. Of course, I might be trying to use logic where none is required. I wonder if Inspector507 can shed some light on that one for me.

 

[Inspector507]

Gary,
An extra wire in the box, if the box is large enough, is not a problem. But I would ask the electrician to put a wire nut on it, if I was doing the inspection.
Actually if I ever build a house, the whole darned thing will be wired with 3 wire, just so I will have a spare everywhere.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color=blue>"Actually if I ever build a house, the whole darned thing will be wired with 3 wire, just so I will have a spare everywhere."</font color=blue>

That was EXACTLY my thought. I have no problem putting wire nuts on them. I just like the idea of having them there if I ever need one. If I never do, so what? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Thanks for responding to this. It lets me continue to believe that there is logic and reason involved in these ordinances. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[rozett]

about a dozen years ago, I added a 24 x 24 addition to my house. I sub'd out all but the electrical work. My dad (used to be an electrician many years ago) and I did the wiring.

I wired it all with 14/3. Every duplex outlet in the room has the top outlet hot all the time and the bottom is turned on/off with the switch. That way the lights can be anywhere in the room and still controlled by the switch. I also put in a quad box on both sides of the family room for the TV/stereo/cable. This eliminates the old extension cord used to gain more outlets. Also wired the outside lighting to two switches.... one in the family room and one in the master bedroom. If there is a commotion outside at night, I don't need to run downsairs to turn on the lights.

For a few dollars more .....

//bruce

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Thanks for the support. I knew I couldn't be the only one who did things like this. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I guess I'm just a 'belt and suspenders' kind of guy. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Rather than a new thread I decided to ask my question here. I'm hoping Inspector 507 can help me out here. I gave up on my electrician ever showing up to finish my job so I'm doing it myself. Everything has gone amazing well (I even redid a couple things he'd done I didn't like).

This morning I ran my 4-0 aluminum from the meter base up the riser and out the weatherhead and started the run from the meter base to the breaker box before I ran out of time and had to get to my 'real' job. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I labeled everything clearly for the power company so their life would be simpler. So far, so good.

My question is on grounding everything. I don't have a water meter so I guess I'm limited to the old earth ground but here's where I'm lost. What gauge wire do I use and what am I required to put in the ground, where and how deep? How near or far from whatever should I be with this. Thanks.

 

[Inspector507]

Gary,
Glad to help you.
You need a #4 copper ground wire. Check with your power supplier/inspection agency as to where to connect it. Some suppliers want it in the meter box some don't. We want it in the panel connected to the neutral bar. An 8' copper clad or galvanized ground rod is needed. How far out from the foundation depends on the locale too. Some want it minimum 24" from the foundation, preferring it to be in undisturbed soil. You'll also need to bond all water lines in the house too, with a peice of #4 copper. Be sure to bond around all dielectric fittings, water softners, etc. Any other questions, or if I confused you, let me know.

 

[KYFARMER]

I have a question for Inspector 507. I want to remove my fuse panel and replace it with a larger circuit breaker box. I feel qualified except for one question.
When I install the new box, I will have to wirenut extensions onto any wires that are too shot. Can this be done inside the panel box or do I need to install some other workbox(s) for these splices? Thanks, Bill