any downside to hst?

[Soundguy]

I'd much rather rebuild the ford 4 speed than the SOS.. heck.. even the 5 spd double clutch job ( expensive).. may be easier.

The more complicated any system is.. the more money and more time it will take. Yes.. power shuttle's have more moving parts and will be more involved than an old spur cut sliding gear non synchro tranny.

One point I was trying to make, is that on a plain gear unit.. an average guy can do his own repair, for the most part.. Pressing gears on and off will be about the only isue.. assembly is pretty common sense.. On a hydro.. that's a whole 'nother ball game. ( for the otherwise mechanically inclined.. but person who is not familiar with a hydro ).. etc

Soundguy

Soundguy, Jerry,

Soundguy, I know you will understand this analogy, the bulk of what Jerry listed as "gear" transmissions" have more in common with a Ford SOS transmission than a 4 or 5 speed. I say, "in common", as they are as complex if not more complex than the SOS.

Now don't get me wrong, they are very good and dependable. My point is that you can't create the mindset that the repair cost of a PowerShuttle, PowerShift, DynaQPS and CVT transmission is in the same league as the 4 speed in my old Ford 4000! I seriously doubt there is any real difference to repair the CVT the DynaQPS or the HST.

My sincere hope is that I won't have to find out!!! I do know that the repair of the 4 speed was about a grand, and I did all the work. (Twice, but I won't go into that ...)

jb

On edit:

http://salesmanual.deere.com/sales/...ons/8030_option_code_1127_1137_ivt_trans.html

Please take a look at the link~ ! It is for the IVT trans that Jerry mentioned. Pretty cool technology. But, is it a "Gear" trans? Anybody think it will be cheap to repair? Personally, cost to repair the trans is a non-issue for me. I bought the one that makes my jobs more efficient, easier and to be honest more fun.

 

[slowrev]

Jumper cables weigh less than a chain.

'

Ever try to jump start a 75 hp diesel with an open battery ? I have never been able to do it.
And I have a set of parott beak 2 gauge cables.

 

[daTeacha]

Soundguy -- I've been away from the site for a few days but this has been an interesting read. I think I have to disagree with you about the "average guy" being able and willing to tear down any tranny, even an old school crashbox style. My impression of most of the posters here is that they tend to maintainence items on their own, but are not going to split the tractor or anything close to it. Yeah, there are lots of guys out there who will, but they aren't in the majority of tractor owners anymore. For the hobby farmer or whatever appellation you choose to apply to most CUT owners, that kind of work is something hired out to a shop with the proper equipment.

Even the professional farmers around here only do a limited amount of mechanical work on their tractors. There is just too much need for specialized tools and equipment and too much time lost from the rest of the farm work to make it economically feasible to rebuild your transmission. It just makes more economic sense to have the dealer fix it and guarantee the work.

We're way off the original topic here, though. Like almost everything else on this site, the transmission question comes down to two things -- what do you like and what will work best for the type of things you do with the tractor.

Me, I'm a gear guy at heart, drive a stick shift car (with air and stereo in the "cab"!), have owned several gear tractors, and currently have a HST DX29. For my uses, it just works better, but is still not as much fun or involving to operate as the Kubota or 8Ns were. I prioritized delicate maneuverability in the barn and woods and several other areas over the enjoyment of running the gear tranny and foot throttle. In hindsight, I wish I had gotten the extra power of 33, but that's not the tractor's fault.

BTW, for you guys considering gear tranny's, you can shift a crashbox on the fly if you're good enough, despite what the common wisdom about that action is. Cars and trucks were made for many years without synchro transmissions and people managed to shift them without too much damage. I would often go from 4 to 5 to 6 in my little Kubota while moving with a load on the tractor.

 

[SteveH_CT]

Yes - and this is a big downside - I get very tired of driving along as I'm cutting my back field with the cruise ctrl on and not having to mess with clutch-throttle - it really makes the job too easy and frankly takes the "good old fashioned hard work" out of it... Obviously I'm kidding - as Moss Road said, and I agree, it will make the majority of your "compact tractor" jobs very easy. If there is a practical downside... perhaps increased periodic maintenance... thats the best i can do for a downside.

 

[Soundguy]

Hmm... I'm of the impression that if you operate a piece of equipment.. you should be able to do some repair work on it.. and that does not include spinning an oil filter on.

If I had to rely on a shop or mechanic doing all my repairs on every tractor I've bought. I'd be dead broke and divorced.

In the old days tractors were made to be repaired right where they broke down in the field.

My ford manual shows a depiction of an engine being rebuilt, and it mentions to use a tree branch, if available as a support for a sling for the block...

Considering shop charges for tractor mechanic's are in the 60$ an hour range.. I learned real quicj how to put a wrench on a nut, and read a repair manual. Before I started collecting antiques, I was fine with maint items like oil changes, and minor repairs like brakes, starters, alternators.. etc Though wouldn't have touched a steering box or hydro pump. Fast forward a few years and it's nothing but time and sweat to tear the rear end out of a tractor and rebuild the pump, and the 3pt lift assembly.. ( that's a 9 hr job on an 8n by the way... from driving in to the garage till driving out. Same with steering box, and other 'medium' level repairs. Even some amount of fabrication is a good general skill to have.. not to mention welding is almost a must for a tractor owner.

When i give out tractor advice i always ask how 'wrenchy' a person is. if they indicate that they are not.. I generally steer them towards a new with warranty tractor.. if they don't mind getting dirty hands, and can read, then used is often a money saver..

One caveat to this is time. I have, on occasion, taken a repair to the shop due to time constraints, or where aquiring 1-time use special test equipment is not financially feasable, compaired to a shop repair charge.. etc. Another exception would be facilities or tools. Can't expect a non-professional mechanic to have every tool needed to completely build/repair/test every part of every tractor. However.. a reasonable amount of tools to facilitate maintenance and at least enough tools / manuals, etc to facilitate R&R of bolt on parts should be a minimum requirement for owning a working tractor, IMHO.

Soundguy

Soundguy -- I've been away from the site for a few days but this has been an interesting read. I think I have to disagree with you about the "average guy" being able and willing to tear down any tranny, even an old school crashbox style. My impression of most of the posters here is that they tend to maintainence items on their own, but are not going to split the tractor or anything close to it. Yeah, there are lots of guys out there who will, but they aren't in the majority of tractor owners anymore. For the hobby farmer or whatever appellation you choose to apply to most CUT owners, that kind of work is something hired out to a shop with the proper equipment.

.

 

[MossRoad]

'

Ever try to jump start a 75 hp diesel with an open battery ? I have never been able to do it.
And I have a set of parott beak 2 gauge cables.

If I were going to pick a tranny on it's ability to be pull started, I would have to wonder how often the tractor is going to fail and if it is a dependable unit.

I've jump started very large detroit diesels that ran huge compressors(something like 1200CFM @ 40PSI) to huff start massive turboprop and jet engines on airliners, so, I figured it would work on a tractor. Remove the open battery from the circuit(or batteries, as ours were four 6V in series/parallel) and start it off the jumper vehicle. Once it is running, disconnect the jumpers and off you go. The battery cables were no larger than our jumper cables, so I don't see why they wouldn't work. Perhaps you are thinking of jumping it off a car battery and I am thinking something larger, like a tractor battery. We jumped truck to truck, so maybe your jumper vehicle had a small battery compared to your tractors? I frequently jump started my 50PTO hp IH off of my pickup truck with no problems. I did have a huge battery in it, though.

 

[FamilyFarm]

Besides the fact many people don't do anything to their tractors more than general maintenance (oil changes, etc.), hiring anything larger to a tractor shop, I'd also guess many people that post here never have significant issues with their tractor's tranny. That is due to many things such as reliability of newer tractors (especially the major brands), low hours of use per year, not really working the tractor to near the limits of the tractor, taking very good care of the tractor (hey, we're enthusiasts or we probably wouldn't be posting here on the forum!).
As already stated, most should buy the tractor that fits them the best, whether that be wanting to stay with the familiar, or a certain tranny fits the uses best, or whatever the reason. I seriously considered GST, HST and Hydraulic Shuttle on three different tractors before buying the 5030 HST. I had my reasons for which I chose, would have been happy with any of them, but NEVER even considered cost of repair. I honestly don't expect it will need tranny repair for as long as I own it, whichever tranny it is. At roughly 100-150 hours per year, the truth is, I'll probably sell it and buy something else long before it is ever an issue. I know that is a real possibililty even though I bought it with the intention of keeping it "forever"!

 

[Soundguy]

It's really hard to wholesale assess a tractors quality by looking at the failure of a single replaceable 'wear' item. That would be like saying that a tractor that is out of fuel was a non-dependale unit.. or if a tire was bad that the tractor was junk.. same with a battery.. it is a seperate part meant to be replaced periodically. besides.. there are many valid reasons for a battery issue. I can't tell you how many times I've dropped the guys off at a construction site only to see every hood in the equipment storage area open and every stinking battery gone. The few pieces of equipment which had locking hoods were sanded out of spite...

Next falure mode is a starter. If your starter goes out.. having 100 batteries or jumper cables won't help you.. however pull starting will..

Obviously these are all 'what if' situations.

I remember a discussion once about older tractors with no starter interlocks.. or easilly defeatable ones.. someone was asking for any situation in which the lack of a starter interlock.. or an easilly defeatable one would be a 'good' thing. Someone brought up being stalled on a RR track and not wanting to abandon the tractor... and thus using the starter to bump the tractor off the tracks... another what if / unlikely situation.. but I'll bet at some time in history.. it has been used..

Obviously we all like a particular type of tranny.. some like shuttles or power shifts.. some like plain gear.. some like HST.. all for different reasons. I think perhaps if I did more tractor stuff other than open field mowing.. I might be more interested in other tranny options... also.. since I mainly deal in antiques.. there are much fewer tranny selections. Here lately.. perhaps out of some kind of karma debt.. I've considered getting a ford with an SOS tranny. Not sure if I want a big or small one.. or early or late one... Guess I'll just keep my eyes open..

Soundguy

If I were going to pick a tranny on it's ability to be pull started, I would have to wonder how often the tractor is going to fail and if it is a dependable unit.

.

 

[3RRL]

Soundguy,

If I had to rely on a shop or mechanic doing all my repairs on every tractor I've bought. I'd be dead broke and divorced.

You'd be dead broke BECAUSE you're be divorced.

I've got a gear tranny and it's OK to do a lot of shifting for fun. But man, when you start doing some serious loader work clutching every few seconds for hours at a time becomes a real drag. My next tractor will be an HST for sure. In any case, you're gonna incurr maintenance and repair costs regardless what type of tranny you get. My focus would be more comfort and ease of operation while working the tractor hard. Otherwise it will wear on you once the fun stuff turns into real work. Then again you get that feeling that you're completely engrossed in the task and it's like you're in a fight with the dirt... you really have to focus and it makes you pay attention. There's also time when I have to grade my ½ mile dirt road. Sometimes I don't shift for 15 minutes or more.... Other than that, the gear tranny works great...just a lot of shifting and clutching at times.

 

[RayH]

Some of the "die hard" gear folks will say that HST costs more to repair and that is why they don't buy them. I think most of them are the same folks who still hand crank their windows in their cars because they think power windows are just another gimmick that will break and cost money to repair.

Thats funny. I actually laughed out loud. Thats me. Its like you can see in my brain. It took me a long time to except fuel injection. Im not completely sold on automatic transmissions and its nearly impossible to find a new vehicle without power windows but I managed to with our last purchase.
About the HST. Well, Ive got one. It took some time to get used to. I thought I had made a huge error giving up my GST for the HST. Ive sense gotten used to the HST but would still prefer the GST, not because of simplicity or reliability sake but because the operation of it just seems more natural to me.

BTW: Manual windows just make sense, they cost less and are more reliable than power windows. Thats a winning combination that cant be refuted.