Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[Tx Jim]

GManBart
Trying to convince buickanddeere of something is similar to this :mur:.

 

[buickanddeere]

They aren't tractors with no suspension, they aren't run for hours and hours and hours on end at high power settings, and they don't have a useful life of many decades without significant maintenance requirements. To sum it up for you, they don't have to be built to the same level of ruggedness as a tractor requires.



Wow, I can't believe you took a swing at the softball I tossed up there. If you build a gasser to be as rugged, and durable as a diesel tractor engine, or if you take a diesel engine, and modify it for gasoline, you aren't going to be saving any money on the engine...in fact, the cost will go up until they pay off the costs to make those modifications, new tooling, etc. So, you wind up with an equally expensive engine that gets worse fuel economy...significantly worse because you're going to be running it hard, which is where gassers lose even more compared to diesels.

You just seem to miss that diesels are relatively more efficient than gas engines when worked hard....like in a tractor, not a car/truck puttering down the highway using 10% of it's rated power.

To make matters even worse for the gasser, if people using diesel tractors want to, they can usually get off-road diesel (150gal minimum for delivery from my supplier) at a good discount over pump diesel...cutting the gas to diesel cost difference even more.



Really? You should tell them, because they must not be nearly as smart about the industry and market as you are. It's amazing they haven't caught on, and that's what they do for a living.

I must have missunderstood . I was talking about technical facts . You are tossing softballs for an ego trip.
I already addressed the market. What people want is not necessarily what is best suited for the application . Who is purchasing bulk quantities of diesel fuel for a CUT?

 

[hutchman]

I thought this discussion was about gasoline CUTs, not what car/truck/SUV somebody wants for their poor wife or kids?

Maybe a tractor manufacturer will decide to make a gasser CUT or SCUT. They'll come up with a new engine design, make the case really beefy since it's part of the structure, oversize all the moving parts so they can handle running at redline indefinitely, make it a DI engine with all the complications that go along with that, develop a whole slew of vibration resistant electrical components, figure out everything needed for the new emissions requirements, come up with a way to make all those new, fancy, electrical components weather resistant, and maybe even do something to limit water retention in the fuel system caused by ethanol being in most readily available gasoline (maybe just a strainer system like airplanes have).

After they're all done with that, they'll have an engine that costs as much to produce as current diesels, makes no more power or torque, and gets worse fuel economy.

I can't imagine why a tractor manufacturer hasn't already jumped all over that idea! :confused2:

Oh no, GManBarts' been assimilated

 

[hutchman]

O

Are you denying that ULS diesel has cost more than gasoline per btu than gasoline since 2006?
Are you saying the either the diesel or gas Cruze uses more HP to drive down the road 55mph?
Are you saying that Uncle Bubba putting around on his rural estate on his CUT is a HD application?
Are you saying the diesel cruze is cheaper per mile to operate ?
Are you saying that after looking at the Nabraska tests that the diesel burns less fuel in a Light Duty application than a gasser ?

As for MHarryE who is decades behind the times. The DI gasser operates at 14.7 to 1 which is a term called Stoichiometric . In fact the DI will go into a lean burn mode under some circumstances .
What is this talk of combustion occurring 90 degrees after TDC is desirable ? It's too late for efficient mechanical conversion of combustion chamber pressure to torque . Combustion that late just causes over heating as more cylinder wall is exposed to absorb heat. Ever hear tell of a gasser running hit due to retarded timing?
Ideal combustion efficiency occurs as close as possible to TDC when the combustion chamber volume is smallest.
This also gives the entire expansion stroke/power stroke to use combustion chamber pressure.
This is where common rail injection of diesels is a win as the entire load of fuel can be injected over 5 degrees of crank rotation instead of over 45 degrees rotation. Less kick back on the compression stroke as combustion is starting at 5 BTDC instead of 15-20 BTDC.
Are you aware that the DI gasser uses variable cam timing to control airflow ?
Are you aware that when a diesel , boiler fire box of gas turbine is operating at less than 100% power . The excess in throttled airflow reduces engine thermal efficiency by cooling the combustion and carrying heat out the exhaust ? Are you aware that some diesel reciprocation and stationary gas turbine applications throttle the intake to improve efficiency at less than 100% power.
Are you aware that when comparing Two similar engines such as the gas 4020 and the diesel 4020. The torque and HP is near identical? How can you compare the 292 or 350 Chev calmed to make power from 1800-4500rpm to a turbo diesel calmed shorter to make power from 1200-2200rpm?

 

[hutchman]

The EPA mileage tests are an even plying field to obtain and apples to apples comparison of mileage. Who should be believed about a machines performance? Lab techs using calibrated equipment under known repeatable conditions ? Or what some Bubba on the Internet or down at the tavern says his vehicle is getting for mileage?
Read up on the micro particulate the greenies have dreamed up after HC, CO, NOX and CO2 problems were solved. The EPA and the like would be out of a job if they failed to find a new crisis to regulate. Now the new "clean" combined Cycle NG generating plants placed in urban areas are polluting the air right where people live.
What controls that 30,000psi common rail injection system on that modern diesel? I would suspect a computer, yards of wiring harness, actuators and sensors.
There was once upon a time when the diesel ruled supreme in some light, most medium and all HD applications until the EPA had their way until 2007 . Now the diesel has been hamstrung and the gas has taken the lead in the light and into some medium duty applications.
Some people swear allegiance and loyalty to various ideals, corporations, institutions, teams etc. "Diesel" is one of them, it must portray some manly masculine concept or something? Why some people still stand there and defend something that WAS best in the past but has now been superseded is a mystery.
It's not 1969,1972, 1989 or 2006 any more.

... caption should read - "... but when I do, this thread makes sense"

 

[GManBart]

I must have missed out. I was talking about technical facts . You are tossing softballs for an ego trip.
I already addressed the market. What people want is not necessarily what is best suited for the application . Who is purchasing bulk quantities of diesel fuel for a CUT?

Well, your technical "facts" have been consistently wrong, so I guess you missed those as well.

In this case, what people want IS the best suited for the application. This thread is proof that there would be limited, at best, demand for a gasser SCUT/CUT, and there isn't any question the diesel is better suited for the task.

You don't have to buy in bulk to get off-road diesel, but a lot of people around here do, and most are for CUTs or older 2wd tractors of the same size.

The funny thing is that there really isn't any debate here. If tractor companies thought there was a market for a modern gasser CUT, and they felt they could turn a profit on them, they would already be making them. They aren't....for a reason, and it's not because you know more about the machines or the market than they do.

If some company decides to maker a gasser CUT or SCUT, I say more power to them! It's not likely to happen, and that's because it doesn't make sense.

 

[hutchman]

We have an acquaintance that owns a repair shop that specializes in VWs. When I told him I wanted to look at the TDI's he said "WHY?". His reasoning was this:
They cost more to buy. They cost more to repair. The fuel costs more. And they are slow compared the gas models. The mileage savings wouldn't pay back for 5-6 years (at that current rate of diesel pricing), and that's just to break even. He really wanted to steer me away from the TDI. He's the one that let me test drive the Jetta (gas model). He told me to take it out on the highway and beat on it. It was fun! But too small for me. He suggested a Passat, but he didn't have any and they rarely come up for sale because people tend to hold on to them (both gas and diesel models). I was kind of bummed. Now I'm not sure if he was being honest, or that he only had gas models in stock that he wanted to sell. But he offered to go to the auctions and bring back some Passats if he found any, but since he was discouraging the TDI, I declined. I agree about the small rear seats in the Jetta, too. We have two kids and were carpooling to school, so 5 folks. Wasn't gonna cut it. It would be a good car for a single, a couple or couple with one kid.... a small couple. :laughing:

I can only comment on my experience. The pre-2007 engines are dirt simple. I have a Bentley shop manual and a HEX+CAN cable from RossTech Ross-Tech: Home and their VCDS software (which is free, you only pay for the cable interface).

I've been able to handle everything I've needed to on my own. There are TDI guru's around the world that specialize on the TDI and they are the best to see if you have an issue. The dealerships developed a nick name of 'stealership'. I know for a fact when you roll into the dealership for a timing belt change, they just change the belt and tensioner. They don't replace water pump and all the rollers that touch the belt. The 100K TB kits I've used are under $300 for everything needed (all stretch bolts, water pump etc.). Lots of places will re-use torque to yield bolts which is a no-no ... and some places will use the 'mark an pray' method instead of proper tools that lock the crank, cam (sometimes fuel pump depending on model) to TDC. I know one guy here that took his to the dealership for a TB change and a few 100 miles later his engine fell and crashed into the fans. Dealership reused the stretch bolts! Long story short, he took it back and they "fixed" it and then it did it again!

I have other friends that insist on taking their gasser to the dealership too and getting hurt pretty bad with service bills also so I think it's everywhere. If you are the slightest bit mechanical, you can keep a TDI going with a shop manual, VCDS, and posting on TDIClub (or MyTurboDiesel). If you get in over your head, the forum will recommend a guru near you to help out. It's a great community ... I've been to several get togethers and TDIFests and people are always willing to help often for free. Show up with parts and someone will do the work for you for cheap or next to nothing often times. I know one guy in Madison WI that was changing TB's to pay his way through medical school. He did so many and had people driving from all over to do theirs ... he made so much money doing it he didn't finish school to my knowledge and went into reparing TDI's full time. He's literally done thousands of TB's.

The 2003 and older are very reliable and don't have any major issues (say away from automatics). The 2004-2006 had cam issues but they are nicer cars ... more stock power/torque etc. The cam parts are around $800 and usually last around 200K miles but some failed (holed a lifter) at less mileage. The conventional wisdom says it's a design defect because they are running the injectors off the cam too and they made the lobes too narrow and the pressures are crazy high. The way they are setup in Europe are fine but they modify them for here and their Diesel is better than ours so things don't always work out right. There have been some aftermarket cams that are chromed and have parkerized lobes and modified bearings in an attempt to address the issue. I personally don't think $800 every 200K miles is that big of deal. I'm getting ready to replace the cam on my 2006 just for good measure.

There are other little things that happen same as any other vendor. Nothing like the heater core going out in my 1999 F-150 where the entire dash had to be pulled out to get to it. $1,000 job for a $40 part. I did it myself and it took me two evenings to do it and I hope I never have to do that one again ... something like over a hundred fasteners had to come off and keep track of.

I tell people if you are interested in TDI's, drive one, hang out on TDIClub to get educated on them. I've probably been responsible for 10 or so folks buying them just from checking mine out. I don't care if you get one or not. No skin off me if you don't. I'm just sharing my experience, the issues I've had and the MPG's I get. It's like having a hybird without the batteries.

If you get the newer kind that have DPF or AdBlue, you have to be more careful. There was a rash of turbo failures and HPFP failures. Sometimes those can be reason to pick one up cheap and then address those issues yourself as I think they've all been sorted out now. It's like anything with new technology ... only time will tell. VW showed their butt's over some of these issues and I've read reports of them taking care of some of these things beyond the warranty.

 

[hutchman]

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Are you aware that the DI gasser uses variable cam timing to control airflow ?
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Looks to me like VW, Nissan and Mazda know how to do variable valve timing in diesel too.

The Mazda engine (granted it's like two years late coming to US) meets emission specs without a DPF:
MAZDA: SKYACTIV-D | ENGINE | SKYACTIV TECHNOLOGY

Clean Diesel Technology : Newly developed Diesel Engine M9R | NISSAN | TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES
Volkswagen 268 horsepower TDI and 10-speed DSG | Official | Digital Trends

 

[Tx Jim]

The conversation IS about the light diesel market in CUT and light highway vehicles.

b&d
Who do you predict will be the 1st tractor manufacturer to market a gasoline tractor if of course a new gasoline powered tractor ever rolls off the assembly line????????????

 

[hutchman]

...
Still stands the gas DI is the cheaper machine to purchase, fuel and service than diesel in the under 50HP equipment range and for light and even some medium duty highway vehicles.

OK, you convinced me. Where do I buy a 50HP DI tractor or (automobile that equals or beats the mileage I get now, is the same size, has the same power, and has 4 or 5 star crash safety rating).