Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[buickanddeere]

I'm going to help you with your analogy since you didn't set it up right ... and then smash it to bits for you

So in many posts you've associated "light duty" with mowing, some tilling etc., while "HD" or heavy duty as "field tractors" pulling 9 rows or something like that. But somehow cars/trucks have been the bulk of whats been. So to take your language and make a proper framework for the analogy, lets use the transportation industry since that's whats been mostly discussed here.

So when you talk about "light duty", you're talking about cars/pickup trucks and HD would be semi-trucks (something extreme like 'field tractors' plowing). OK, in light of that framework I can somewhat relate to your light/HD comments.

Now, you said GDI would be cheaper in the "light duty" applications. Well, I've pretty much beat that one to death already ... no lighter application than a passenger car. I showed you the economy of my 2002 and 2006 TDI's, of which no non-hybird GDI can currently beat. But you don't want to hear about that, you want to hear about Tier IV ... and you want to go with EPA MPG numbers and not real world tests. Edmonds did a GDI vs TDI test. Apparently they used the EPA estimated MPG numbers so you should whole heartedly accept the results of their test without question.

The TDI won (but just barely). Their tests (ahem, estimate) had TDI at .74 cents a gallon and the gassers all coming in at .76 cents a gallon.

TDI Versus GDI - 2011 Volkswagen Jetta TDI Long-Term Road Test

I can tell you in real world numbers, the gap between the TDI and the GDI's in this test are much farther apart. I have a co-worker with a 2013 TDI and he gets much better than the EPA esitmate (again, EPA gives very conservative estimates for the TDI - everyone I talk too beats their estimate by a significant margin while they give inflated numbers for the GDI - which is why Ford, Kia, and others are going to court over it) and I have driven every car in the test except the Cruz. There is no comparison in the size, feel, handling, performance etc. of the TDI. The only one of the bunch that had any soul whatsoever was the Focus. If I couldn't have the TDI I would take the Focus. It is very zippy and fun to drive and handles very well. But it doesn't get the claimed MPG. I rented one just a few months ago and drove to Michigan and back (over 1,000 miles) in it and it was a pleasure to drive but I got closer to the 30MPG mark and it was all 100% highway driving.

It has been a while since I drove an Elantra but it had absolutely no soul at all. Didn't feel much different than driving an older Corolla.

To your point, the TDI was $2K more but it's trim level, size, handling, safety crash rating, and performace is worth that to me. The Focus was the second best out of the bunch but doesn't have the size, ecconomy or crash safety rating of the TDI.

If you compare actual real-world MPG, the TDI will make up the $2K premium if you want to count pennies. As long as I keep vehicles (and I usually don't buy them new so I don't pay the premium to start with), $2K extra is nothing if it is a vehicle I like and will keep for 10+ years.

So there you have it, Tier IV TDI vs 3 top GDI's using "fictitious" EPA numbers ... the TDI wins. It's on the Interent so it must be true. Bonjour!

Read through your post twice but I am unable to decipher any particular point beyond that you like your souped up diesel. One one hand you say $2000 is neither here nor there on purchase price. Yet if a gas DI used $2000 more fuel than a diesel while heavy towing over a span of 10 years, you would go ballistic with that news.
Still stands the gas DI is the cheaper machine to purchase, fuel and service than diesel in the under 50HP equipment range and for light and even some medium duty highway vehicles.
Mrs B&D has a 2.4L four cylinder gas DI and it's a surprisingly perky vehicle for an SUV. I do wish it had the 3.6L for even more power. It would also beat the Fiat VM Motori 3.0 diesel in price,power and efficiency.

 

[buickanddeere]

I'm going to help you with your analogy since you didn't set it up right ... and then smash it to bits for you

So in many posts you've associated "light duty" with mowing, some tilling etc., while "HD" or heavy duty as "field tractors" pulling 9 rows or something like that. But somehow cars/trucks have been the bulk of whats been. So to take your language and make a proper framework for the analogy, lets use the transportation industry since that's whats been mostly discussed here.

So when you talk about "light duty", you're talking about cars/pickup trucks and HD would be semi-trucks (something extreme like 'field tractors' plowing). OK, in light of that framework I can somewhat relate to your light/HD comments.

Now, you said GDI would be cheaper in the "light duty" applications. Well, I've pretty much beat that one to death already ... no lighter application than a passenger car. I showed you the economy of my 2002 and 2006 TDI's, of which no non-hybird GDI can currently beat. But you don't want to hear about that, you want to hear about Tier IV ... and you want to go with EPA MPG numbers and not real world tests. Edmonds did a GDI vs TDI test. Apparently they used the EPA estimated MPG numbers so you should whole heartedly accept the results of their test without question.

The TDI won (but just barely). Their tests (ahem, estimate) had TDI at .74 cents a gallon and the gassers all coming in at .76 cents a gallon.

TDI Versus GDI - 2011 Volkswagen Jetta TDI Long-Term Road Test

I can tell you in real world numbers, the gap between the TDI and the GDI's in this test are much farther apart. I have a co-worker with a 2013 TDI and he gets much better than the EPA esitmate (again, EPA gives very conservative estimates for the TDI - everyone I talk too beats their estimate by a significant margin while they give inflated numbers for the GDI - which is why Ford, Kia, and others are going to court over it) and I have driven every car in the test except the Cruz. There is no comparison in the size, feel, handling, performance etc. of the TDI. The only one of the bunch that had any soul whatsoever was the Focus. If I couldn't have the TDI I would take the Focus. It is very zippy and fun to drive and handles very well. But it doesn't get the claimed MPG. I rented one just a few months ago and drove to Michigan and back (over 1,000 miles) in it and it was a pleasure to drive but I got closer to the 30MPG mark and it was all 100% highway driving.

It has been a while since I drove an Elantra but it had absolutely no soul at all. Didn't feel much different than driving an older Corolla.

To your point, the TDI was $2K more but it's trim level, size, handling, safety crash rating, and performace is worth that to me. The Focus was the second best out of the bunch but doesn't have the size, ecconomy or crash safety rating of the TDI.

If you compare actual real-world MPG, the TDI will make up the $2K premium if you want to count pennies. As long as I keep vehicles (and I usually don't buy them new so I don't pay the premium to start with), $2K extra is nothing if it is a vehicle I like and will keep for 10+ years.

So there you have it, Tier IV TDI vs 3 top GDI's using "fictitious" EPA numbers ... the TDI wins. It's on the Interent so it must be true. Bonjour!

Read through your post twice but I am unable to decipher any particular point beyond that you like your souped up diesel. One one hand you say $2000 is neither here nor there on purchase price. Yet if a gas DI used $2000 more fuel than a diesel while heavy towing over a span of 10 years, you would go ballistic with that news.
Still stands the gas DI is the cheaper machine to purchase, fuel and service than diesel in the under 50HP equipment range and for light and even some medium duty highway vehicles.
Mrs B&D has a 2.4L four cylinder gas DI and it's a surprisingly perky vehicle for an SUV. I do wish it had the 3.6L for even more power. It would also beat the Fiat VM Motori 3.0 diesel in price,power and efficiency.
Looking at a GMC Canyon Crew Cab 4x4 pickup for the daughter to drive. With the 3.6 DI gas instead of the 2.8L Fiat VM Diesel four cylinder.

 

[GManBart]

I thought this discussion was about gasoline CUTs, not what car/truck/SUV somebody wants for their poor wife or kids?

Maybe a tractor manufacturer will decide to make a gasser CUT or SCUT. They'll come up with a new engine design, make the case really beefy since it's part of the structure, oversize all the moving parts so they can handle running at redline indefinitely, make it a DI engine with all the complications that go along with that, develop a whole slew of vibration resistant electrical components, figure out everything needed for the new emissions requirements, come up with a way to make all those new, fancy, electrical components weather resistant, and maybe even do something to limit water retention in the fuel system caused by ethanol being in most readily available gasoline (maybe just a strainer system like airplanes have).

After they're all done with that, they'll have an engine that costs as much to produce as current diesels, makes no more power or torque, and gets worse fuel economy.

I can't imagine why a tractor manufacturer hasn't already jumped all over that idea! :confused2:

 

[MossRoad]

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

View attachment 410945

Hahahhaaa A french model! Nice!!! :laughing:

 

[MossRoad]

The seats will raise/lower and the steering wheel telescopes in/out. Usually there is plenty of room for up front for tall drivers (I'm 6ft., have a friend that is 6'-6" and he actually fits in the Mk IV/A4 model) but if you have (large) people in the back, the Jetta can get small quick. My kids were smaller when we got our 2006 and now that they are adult size it is cramped for long trips. The Passat is bigger and there isn't much difference in the economy of the two MPG wise these days. I've held off getting one to wait and see who comes out with what and how reliable it is. Been renting vehicles to go in vacation etc., ... gives everyone a change and I get to try out the latest stuff.

I have a friend in Indy that loves the Impala (his dad retired from GM) and has had several ... it's what he currently drives.

We have an acquaintance that owns a repair shop that specializes in VWs. When I told him I wanted to look at the TDI's he said "WHY?". His reasoning was this:
They cost more to buy. They cost more to repair. The fuel costs more. And they are slow compared the gas models. The mileage savings wouldn't pay back for 5-6 years (at that current rate of diesel pricing), and that's just to break even. He really wanted to steer me away from the TDI. He's the one that let me test drive the Jetta (gas model). He told me to take it out on the highway and beat on it. It was fun! But too small for me. He suggested a Passat, but he didn't have any and they rarely come up for sale because people tend to hold on to them (both gas and diesel models). I was kind of bummed. Now I'm not sure if he was being honest, or that he only had gas models in stock that he wanted to sell. But he offered to go to the auctions and bring back some Passats if he found any, but since he was discouraging the TDI, I declined. I agree about the small rear seats in the Jetta, too. We have two kids and were carpooling to school, so 5 folks. Wasn't gonna cut it. It would be a good car for a single, a couple or couple with one kid.... a small couple. :laughing:

 

[MossRoad]

Yep, I have a 2005 Yukon XL in the driveway with about 120k miles on the clock. Not a spot of rust on and and still in almost perfect shape.
Spent its life in SC until last spring. The dad bought it, sold to his son (for his sons wifes car) and I bought it from him.

Aaron Z

I've got a '93 Suburban that just turned 100K. Right rear wheel well is starting to decay. I think it all depends on road salt, how often you wash it, garaged when not in use, etc...

 

[Jim Nelson]

I thought this discussion was about gasoline CUTs, not what car/truck/SUV somebody wants for their poor wife or kids?

Maybe a tractor manufacturer will decide to make a gasser CUT or SCUT. They'll come up with a new engine design, make the case really beefy since it's part of the structure, oversize all the moving parts so they can handle running at redline indefinitely, make it a DI engine with all the complications that go along with that, develop a whole slew of vibration resistant electrical components, figure out everything needed for the new emissions requirements, come up with a way to make all those new, fancy, electrical components weather resistant, and maybe even do something to limit water retention in the fuel system caused by ethanol being in most readily available gasoline (maybe just a strainer system like airplanes have).

After they're all done with that, they'll have an engine that costs as much to produce as current diesels, makes no more power or torque, and gets worse fuel economy.

I can't imagine why a tractor manufacturer hasn't already jumped all over that idea! :confused2:

You forgot the "Let's pretend sound system" they're putting in the new cars.

 

[GManBart]

You forgot the "Let's pretend sound system" they're putting in the new cars.

:laughing:

 

[buickanddeere]

I thought this discussion was about gasoline CUTs, not what car/truck/SUV somebody wants for their poor wife or kids?

Maybe a tractor manufacturer will decide to make a gasser CUT or SCUT. They'll come up with a new engine design, make the case really beefy since it's part of the structure, oversize all the moving parts so they can handle running at redline indefinitely, make it a DI engine with all the complications that go along with that, develop a whole slew of vibration resistant electrical components, figure out everything needed for the new emissions requirements, come up with a way to make all those new, fancy, electrical components weather resistant, and maybe even do something to limit water retention in the fuel system caused by ethanol being in most readily available gasoline (maybe just a strainer system like airplanes have).

After they're all done with that, they'll have an engine that costs as much to produce as current diesels, makes no more power or torque, and gets worse fuel economy.

I can't imagine why a tractor manufacturer hasn't already jumped all over that idea! :confused2:

How do highway vehicles, boats, ATV's, RTV's snowmobiles and motorcycles manage to operate with gas DI engines? Or those Tier IV diesels with sensors and solenoid valves wired in all in, over and around the engine.One would think that they would shake apart or short out.
The main structural change would be a cylinder head with spark plugs and injectors. Some manufactures have figured that one out.
Manufactures could sell DI gas tractors to anybody that doesn't have a diesel pickup or wished that they had a diesel pickup.
Just wait for the next round of tightened Tier V emissions on diesels. Gasoline has a higher ratio of hydrogen to carbon than diesel fuel which means more water vapour up the gas stack than CO2 vs the diesel per HP/hr. You don't think the EPA is going to stop introducing tighter rules yet?
Tier 5 is here | Equipment World | Construction Equipment, News and Information | Heavy Construction Equipment

 

[TomSeller]

It is in Friendly Politics: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/friendly-politics/329257-wind-generators.html

I have heard about that section of TBN. A bunch of mind mannered easy going kumbaya types in there as I understand.