Oil & Fuel Anyone use a mask to reduce Diesel fumes?

[California]

While you guys argue the difference between poisoned and dead there's another minor point to consider:

You can't buy B100. It legal status as an experimental fuel requires at least 1% (I think that's the number) of petro diesel blended in, in order to transport it legally. My guess is that some lobbyist got that in there; I can't think of another reason. There may also be additives in commercial 'biodiesel'. So you can't consider biodiesel to be non-poisonous like pure cooking oil.

 

[rdsaustintx]

Ok, so guys, if I'm going to use mine in my crawl space (with a double door I can open), and if I use the type of mask that has the two filers you screw on to the sides, is that safe enough?

Of course I'm going to put a fan pulling the air out, but is that enough? I thought about renting one of those really large fans to pull the exhaust fumes out.

I'm also adding another door on the other side, so I may wait until I get that in - then I can use it in there with both doors open and the fan going....

Thoughts?

I'm sorry, Tommy. I drifted your thread (some of these posts are nuts). A good respirator (dual cartridge carbon filters) will reduce particulates and neutralize hydrocarbons, but does nothing for the CO. Obviously ventilation is important. Have you thought about just using a CO detector? You can get a decent homeowner-grade detector (with a readout) for $50-75. If you have any fuel-burning appliances in your house, could use it there after the tractor work.

I have a CO detector in my three bay shop. It barks all the time when I run the tractor in there. Even with the overhead doors open.

Russell in Texas

 

[tommyz270]

Thanks Russell, it's not my original post, but thought I'd ask the question again...

Interesting discussions, but you guys honestly lost me a little while back and I usually keep up with the technical side of things...

I think I'm going to wait to do that work until I get the second door installed so I can get cross-ventilation going...

Isn't another good CO detector is when I'm feeling light headed?? Just kidding.... But, that does bring up a good point - has anyone had any issues, situations, or physical feelings to note and be careful of when using in tight and somewhat enclosed spaces?

 

[mswlogo]

Ok, so guys, if I'm going to use mine in my crawl space (with a double door I can open), and if I use the type of mask that has the two filers you screw on to the sides, is that safe enough?

Of course I'm going to put a fan pulling the air out, but is that enough? I thought about renting one of those really large fans to pull the exhaust fumes out.

I'm also adding another door on the other side, so I may wait until I get that in - then I can use it in there with both doors open and the fan going....

Thoughts?

In a closed situation CO is the most dangerous. And the mask your talking about won't help. Fans and open doors will help but it's hard to say if it's enough.

 

[rdsaustintx]

Isn't another good CO detector is when I'm feeling light headed?? Just kidding.... But, that does bring up a good point - has anyone had any issues, situations, or physical feelings to note and be careful of when using in tight and somewhat enclosed spaces?

Read up on the subject. CPSC and CDC like to call CO the "silent killer" for three reasons:

1. NO taste, odor or color whatsoever.
2. The initial symptoms mimic many other common (minor) health conditions.
3. It impairs mental function before it kills you.

Wrote a short paper on the subject for a technical advisory manual 10 years ago. Apparently research could not overcome "layman's language". I am a mere engineer.

I don't want to impair your project or enjoyment in anyway. Just think it's smart to play safe. Bota drivers are our most precious resource.


Back to the non-topic:

Biodiesel will probably be more important as a fuel supplement in the future. It can never be produced in sufficient quantity to displace petroleum, is harder to handle and increases nitrogen oxides (acid rain). It does NOT produce emissions which are non-toxic or free of greenhouse gases.

However, it can replace some of the injector lubricity we lost when ULSD was adopted and it appeals to environmentalists (obviously). 5% bio may become standard someday. Nice political offset to reducing crop subsidies.

 

[Jon Heron]

An EPA study listing major emissions by biodiesel fuel content has nothing to do with it?

Its a study on the impact of biodiesel on petrol diesel emissions in different blends for highway fleets... Nothing to do with the toxicity of biodiesel... Maybe you could point out the section that relates to its toxicity alone.

westcliffe01, I am aware of the difference between a fuel and the emissions given off when the fuel is burned. The 68% reduction in hydrocarbons referenced in that study means that biodiesel reduced the hydrocarbon emissions from the BLENDED fuel by 68%, not that pure biodiesel has 68% hydrocarbons. As far as I understand it there are no hydrocarbons in biodiesel either before or after combustion but I am not 100% certain on that as I have seen reference to plant based hydrocarbons.... There seems to be allot of conflicting data out there...

tommyz270, If you provide plenty of ventilation you should be fine, cross ventilation is important, the reason diesels are used in mining operations is because the amount of CO produced is negligible. You wont ever hear of someone offing themselves by piping there diesel exhaust into there car window... I would highly recommend burning 100% biodiesel to seriously mitigate any concern...

California,

You can't buy B100. It legal status as an experimental fuel requires at least 1% (I think that's the number) of petro diesel blended in, in order to transport it legally.

That is 100% incorrect. Unless there are ridiculous bylaws where you live... B100 is not considered a hazardous product and has no transportation regulations in its pure form, once blended with petrol diesel then all the same regulations pertaining to petrol diesel must be followed... See the MSDS sheet I posted earlier.

Russell,
I understand your concern for the safety of members and that I can not knock as it is commendable! However your stance on biodiesel toxicity goes against all the studies I have posted pertaining to the subject. Look at the study referenced in the paper from the Manitoba government, they subjected animals to biodiesel emissions and could not kill them? They did produce tissue damage in the lungs after "extreme" exposure caused by the soot and heat but no poisoning whatsoever either from C0 or other... That speaks volumes right there about the toxicity (or lack there of) of the emissions.

Back to the non-topic:

Biodiesel will probably be more important as a fuel supplement in the future. AGREED!It can never be produced in sufficient quantity to displace petroleumAGREED, is harder to handle and increases nitrogen oxides (acid rain).WRONG see below It does NOT produce emissions which are non-toxic or free of greenhouse gases.

Acid rain contributors are virtually eliminated with biodiesel, see here; Diesel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and read the section about emissions;

Biodiesel emissions

The use of biodiesel blended diesel fuels in fractions up to 99% result in substantial emission reductions. Sulfur oxide and sulfate emissions, major components of acid rain, are essentially eliminated with pure biodiesel and substantially reduced using biodiesel blends with minor quantities of ULSD petrodiesel. Use of biodiesel also results in substantial reductions of unburned hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and particulate matter compared to either gasoline or petrodiesel. CO, or carbon monoxide, emissions using biodiesel are substantially reduced, on the order of 50% compared to most petrodiesel fuels. The exhaust emissions of particulate matter from biodiesel have been found to be 30 percent lower than overall particulate matter emissions from petrodiesel. The exhaust emissions of total hydrocarbons (a contributing factor in the localized formation of smog and ozone) are up to 93 percent lower for biodiesel than diesel fuel. Biodiesel emission of nitrogen oxides can sometimes increase slightly. However, biodiesel's complete lack of sulfur and sulfate emissions allows the use of NOx control technology, such as AdBlue, that cannot be used with conventional diesel, allowing the management and control of nitrous oxide emissions.

Biodiesel also may reduce health risks associated with petroleum diesel. Biodiesel emissions showed decreased levels of PAH and nitrited PAH compounds which have been identified as potential cancer causing compounds. In recent testing, PAH compounds were reduced by 75 to 85 percent, except for benzo(a)anthracene, which was reduced by roughly 50 percent. Targeted nPAH compounds were also reduced dramatically with biodiesel fuel, with 2-nitrofluorene and 1-nitropyrene reduced by 90 percent, and the rest of the nPAH compounds reduced to only trace levels.[22]

That says it all man!
So again lets agree to disagree and leave this to rest eh?
Jon

 

[The Dougster]

As is often the circumstance, we've taken a simple question: "Anyone use a mask to reduce diesel fumes?" and turned in into a scientific argument, which in itself, ain't a bad thing and I'm not about to enter that fray....
My answer is that, No, I don't wear a mask.... I seriously question the little paper masks effectiveness.... Do they really provide protection or do they simply make the person wearing them feel better? Don't have an answer and really don't spend time worrying about it.

 

[WH401]

I ran into the same problem when I first had my 3320. I love diesel engines through and through, but the exhaust is the one thing that I hate about them. Why tractor manufacturers have started putting the exhaust exits so low on the front of the machines is beyond me, it's completely stupid IMO. I tried numerous things to get rid of the amount of fumes that I breath. As it is now, I have to wear a respirator whenever I cut grass because I have horrible pollen, dust, grass, etc., allergies. The respirator I was using before I got the 3320 didn't block out the diesel fumes or smell. So I went and purchased this one from Lowes, AOSafety : Professional Quality Respiratory Protection.
It has a P100 filter (the highest filtration filter you can buy I believe), w/ a pre-filter that is charcoal based. The charcoal absorbs the smell of the diesel fumes and that makes the difference between this type of filter and others. So far it completely blocks out the diesel fumes and the only time I ever get a whiff is if I intentionally suck in lots of air while standing directly next to the exhaust. I kinda am annoyed that I have to wear it whenever I use the tractor, not just cutting grass. But I feel that keeping your lungs healthy is more important. It makes a big difference in how I feel after using the tractor. If I use the tractor without it I can tell that I have caused irritation to my throat and lungs because I'll have a slight cough for a night or two. With the respirator I don't encounter this problem and I feel great afterwards.

Another thing that will help greatly is to change the exhaust from a horizontal setup to a vertical mount. I installed the vertical exhaust kit on my 3320 and it made a huge difference in the amount of fumes that get blown back at your face. Even wearing a respirator it would be a good idea because the more fumes that are blowing in your face are going to wear down the effectiveness of the filters faster.

Personally I can't wait til' they start coming out with tractors that have emission control system's like the new diesel trucks do, I would definitely buy one. That's one thing I love about my 06 Dodge, it's still a pre-emission diesel, but it doesn't have anywhere near the smell that my 92' does. You can actually sit at a stop light with the windows down and not worry about it.

 

[California]

You can't buy B100. It legal status as an experimental fuel requires at least 1% (I think that's the number) of petro diesel blended in

California,
That is 100% incorrect. Unless there are ridiculous bylaws where you live...

Jon, I'll correct that slightly and say I can't buy fuel that is guaranteed to be pure B100. This is based on the research I undertook while looking for a supplier. Here are current cites to the suppliers of the fuel available here (Northern California):

Royal Petroleum Company, the only local company advertising that they distribute Biodiesel:

Royal Petroleum sells B99, which means that the fuel is made of 99% biodiesel and 1% petrodiesel.

And a quote from Bentley Biofuels in Reno Nevada, the actual refiner of the fuel I am presently using:

1. Only purchase and use biodiesel that meets ASTM D-6751 specifications. Our biodiesel meets these specifications. Please note that product sold may be blended to contain 0.1% petroleum distillates.
Biodiesel is non-toxic in its pure state. Mixtures with petroleum diesel are not.

I can't immediately find the cite for mandatory blending that I read somewhere a year ago. I hope these cites from actual suppliers are convincing that the retail fuel available here is not guaranteed 100% biofuel.

 

[rdsaustintx]

Jon,

The EPA report says basically the same thing as all the references you cited. Some emissions are reduced, while NOx is increased.

From the Marine Biodiesel handbook you linked:

Carbon monoxide gas is a toxic [sic] byproduct of all hydrocarbon combustion that is also reduced by increasing the oxygen content of the fuel. More complete oxidation of the fuel results in more complete combustion to carbon dioxide rather than leading to the formation of carbon monoxide. In the 1998 report by the Southwest Research Institute on the effects of Biodiesel on truck engine exhaust emissions, the levels of carbon monoxide were shown to be reduced from 8% to 22% with a B-20 blend, depending on the type of engine. When the fuel was switched from low-sulfur petroleum diesel to neat Biodiesel, there was a 28% to 37% drop in the carbon monoxide emissions.

100-37 = 63% still there.

If you don't agree that CO is toxic, then yeah, no point in arguing. Good luck with that premise.

Results are similar for hydrocarbons and soot. Incremental improvements. But not for NOx.

You are correct NOx do not contribute to acid rain. My error. They cause ozone and are the next big problem identified for guys like Westcliff to deal with.

It's true diesels normally produce much less CO than gasoline engines. It's true they use diesels in mining. It is not true that it is perfectly safe. NIOSH heavily regulates mine equipment and ventilation, detectors are mandatory and there are plenty of recorded incidents of CO poisoning in mine operations (from all sorts of combustion sources).

From your quoted text: "The use of biodiesel blended diesel fuels in fractions up to 99% result in substantial emission reductions."

Exactly. Emissions are reduced, not eliminated. Large difference. Claiming they are completely non-toxic is simply hyperbolic. I ain't anti-bio by any means, but c'mon....


One benefit of all this reading is realizing CO may be more of a problem at idle than WOT. My shop detector (NightHawk) shows a couple hundred ppm after a few minutes with the BX running, usually at high idle. That's nowhere near enough to kill, but enough to make me stupid. No wonder we all drive around with the parking brake on...