Anyone with ICF building experience?

   / Anyone with ICF building experience?
  • Thread Starter
#31  
I知 afraid I can稚 provide much guidance in that area, as I did not price it both ways. The truth is I decided on using the Faswall block before I even had the plans complete. Again, for the DIYer with time and some good help during the critical times of pouring the concrete, I think there is an argument to be made the blocks are a cost-effective method yielding a superior building over stick-framing. That argument goes out the window when hiring a contractor who has no experience with the product.

One thing to note when comparing Faswall (or similar) blocks to standard foam ICFs. While they are obviously similar in design and construction, there are some fundamental differences. Foam ICFs yield a conventional building envelope which places a high value on being air-tight. Faswall blocks are designed to create a wall which is vapor-permeable, acting not only as a thermal mass but also as a humidity sink, maintaining a more stable indoor relative humidity. Additionally, Faswall blocks are more efficient as a thermal mass because the insulation is all on the outboard side of the concrete core. A conventional foam ICF generally has the same thickness of insulation between the concrete core and the inside of the building as it does between the core and the outside, which significantly impairs the flywheel effect of the thermal mass.

My location is in an area with timber and high risk for wildfires. And it can get VERY WINDY. I chose the Faswall blocks (and exterior Roxul insulation, steel framing for the decks, metal siding and roof, hardwood decking with a Class A fire rating, etc.) because I wanted a structure built like the proverbial brick sh*thouse and as fireproof as I could make it. Those considerations obviously added some significant costs to our project.

Yeah, I think you are spot-on for what you wanted to do...can't argue with anything you've done. I'm just thinking to myself, if ICF's truly only add 5-10% to the upfront costs, certainly seems like an easy decision to use it. What other ICF's did you research, before settling on Faswall?

There is one product that will replace both SIP's and ICF...they are insulated studs. The only real benefit to SIP's and ICF is a thermal break. Well you can now get that in an insulated stud. Then you build in a traditional manner with the option of foam panels on the outside or spray foam on the inside. The insulated studs have break away chases to run electrical wires etc. It builds up quick at a fraction of the cost. It's such a simple concept, I surprised no one has thought of it before.

Those are interesting, but you still have many of the short comings of stick-built homes remaining (strength, pests, less thermal mass, etc...) And to say the only real benefit to SIP's & ICF's is a thermal break is very short-sighted. What is the percentage of cost increase over a std 2x6 or 2x8? Are they readily available in your area?
 
   / Anyone with ICF building experience? #32  
I'd seen a video on that, it's such a simple but effective idea.........Mike
 
   / Anyone with ICF building experience? #33  
Those are interesting, but you still have many of the short comings of stick-built homes remaining (strength, pests, less thermal mass, etc...) And to say the only real benefit to SIP's & ICF's is a thermal break is very short-sighted. What is the percentage of cost increase over a std 2x6 or 2x8? Are they readily available in your area?

If your worried about cost with insulated studs, you're truly in for a shock when it comes to sip and ICF's. Everything is custom in those builds. When you have 12 inch walls, no standard doors or windows fit. All electrical and plumbing is more expensive. Electrical boxes don't even fit correct and special extension boxes are needed for each outlet. The building world is not set up to build to sip and ICF construction. Insulated studs still give the option of using standard building materials.

I sprayed foam my cabin but did not use insulated studs. It can be -30 and a small fire keeps it warm. Thermal mass is not really an issue in a home, every piece of furniture in your house is a radiant fixture if you heat correctly, the key is air sealing. Then it's about changing the air on your terms.

I've been down this road your about to journey on. Far from short sided.
 
   / Anyone with ICF building experience?
  • Thread Starter
#34  
If your worried about cost with insulated studs, you're truly in for a shock when it comes to sip and ICF's. Everything is custom in those builds. When you have 12 inch walls, no standard doors or windows fit. All electrical and plumbing is more expensive. Electrical boxes don't even fit correct and special extension boxes are needed for each outlet. The building world is not set up to build to sip and ICF construction. Insulated studs still give the option of using standard building materials.

I sprayed foam my cabin but did not use insulated studs. It can be -30 and a small fire keeps it warm. Thermal mass is not really an issue in a home, every piece of furniture in your house is a radiant fixture if you heat correctly, the key is air sealing. Then it's about changing the air on your terms.

I've been down this road your about to journey on. Far from short sided.

Worried is not the right mindset, I'm trying to inform & educate myself. Cost is a factor for me to help determine *value*, not something to worry about.

I'm not discounting the Tstud system at all, I think it's interesting & will do more research. But as you eluded to yourself, your results seem to be similar with regular stick contruction, vs the Tstud. For those who prefer wood construction, these might be the ticket. For me, I'm interested in wood alternatives. But I'm in the research/education mode right now.....far from getting out my checkbook.

And I was only referring to your quote on ICF's as being short-sighted, not you personally. Sorry if it came across that way. :drink:
 
   / Anyone with ICF building experience? #35  
If your worried about cost with insulated studs, you're truly in for a shock when it comes to sip and ICF's. Everything is custom in those builds. When you have 12 inch walls, no standard doors or windows fit. All electrical and plumbing is more expensive. Electrical boxes don't even fit correct and special extension boxes are needed for each outlet. The building world is not set up to build to sip and ICF construction. Insulated studs still give the option of using standard building materials.

I sprayed foam my cabin but did not use insulated studs. It can be -30 and a small fire keeps it warm. Thermal mass is not really an issue in a home, every piece of furniture in your house is a radiant fixture if you heat correctly, the key is air sealing. Then it's about changing the air on your terms.

I've been down this road your about to journey on. Far from short sided.

I won't disagree with much of what you said regarding the building industry's resistance to anything but traditional stick-frame houses. Using alternative materials and methods requires some innovative planning and flexibility, all of which comes at a premium.

I will, however, draw attention to the statements I highlighted above and simply state that these are a couple of the disconnects that cause confusion when looking at Durisol, Faswall, and similar non-styrofoam ICF building materials. Thermal mass, when present, is certainly an issue in a home constructed with these materials and it most certainly has a dramatic impact on heating and cooling those homes. My beef with styrofoam ICFs, as noted previously, is their very design insulates the thermal mass of the concrete core from the interior the same as it insulates that mass from the exterior, which significantly diminishes the benefits of having that thermal mass in the first place. And, again, with these homes you DO NOT want a vapor barrier. This does not mean there's a breeze blowing through the walls 24/7. The key is allowing water vapor to move through the walls . . . in BOTH directions. And, no, there is not an issue with mold and mildew as the pH of the substrates are sufficiently high to inhibit growth. Think lime wash as it was used in hospitals and dairy farms. They didn't just use it because it was cheap; it was a natural disinfectant.

For the DIYer, these blocks can make a lot of sense. If hiring a contractor, buckle your chinstrap if you aren't in an area where you can locate a builder who works specifically with these products, as you are going to pay for your contractor's on-the-job vocational training.
 
   / Anyone with ICF building experience? #36  
Worried is not the right mindset, I'm trying to inform & educate myself. Cost is a factor for me to help determine *value*, not something to worry about.

I'm not discounting the Tstud system at all, I think it's interesting & will do more research. But as you eluded to yourself, your results seem to be similar with regular stick contruction, vs the Tstud. For those who prefer wood construction, these might be the ticket. For me, I'm interested in wood alternatives. But I'm in the research/education mode right now.....far from getting out my checkbook.

And I was only referring to your quote on ICF's as being short-sighted, not you personally. Sorry if it came across that way. :drink:

I guess my point is Tstuds were developed because sip and ICF's required overly complex builds. There are many ways to skin a cat and the evolution of frustration with those methods lead to better methods. Would hate to see you turn a mole hill into a mountain just because your stuck on a outdated method of building.

You should really watch that sip building series with that couple in Idaho. It's painful to watch all the issues sip's and ICF's cause.
 
   / Anyone with ICF building experience?
  • Thread Starter
#37  
My beef with styrofoam ICFs, as noted previously, is their very design insulates the thermal mass of the concrete core from the interior the same as it insulates that mass from the exterior, which significantly diminishes the benefits of having that thermal mass in the first place.

This was my thought as well, when comparing the two types. Did you research the Bautex system? Yet a different spin on the ICF.
 
   / Anyone with ICF building experience? #38  
This was my thought as well, when comparing the two types. Did you research the Bautex system? Yet a different spin on the ICF.

Not familiar with the Bautex product. As a general observation, I will add that certain types of building techniques and construction materials lend themselves better to certain designs. I would have liked to use SIPs for my roof, but the design simply didn稚 work well with SIPs (I obtained quotes from several manufacturers and the price increase over engineered trusses was ridiculously high). Figure out your basic design and key architectural elements and eliminate the building materials and techniques which aren稚 going to work. Once you致e narrowed your options, the process becomes more straightforward.
 
   / Anyone with ICF building experience?
  • Thread Starter
#39  
Not familiar with the Bautex product. As a general observation, I will add that certain types of building techniques and construction materials lend themselves better to certain designs. I would have liked to use SIPs for my roof, but the design simply didn稚 work well with SIPs (I obtained quotes from several manufacturers and the price increase over engineered trusses was ridiculously high). Figure out your basic design and key architectural elements and eliminate the building materials and techniques which aren稚 going to work. Once you致e narrowed your options, the process becomes more straightforward.

For sure, you have a unique design that would(did) require more consideration. I should have a lot of options, as I'm just doing a 20'ish by 30'ish rectangle with a simple gabled roof...:cool2:

Next week I want to explore contractors a bit, get a feel for who does what, regarding ICF's. We do have a really high quality timber framer in the area, been to some of his "raisings". Really love the aesthetics of timber framing, and the history behind it. Also have a well regarded log operation in the same area, who has built some really nice homes. I'm hoping to find an equally well regarded ICF contractor!

Here's a couple links to the local guys:
Ohio Timber Frame Construction | OakBridge Timber Framing
Log Homes | Log Home Floorplans | Hochstetler Milling
 
   / Anyone with ICF building experience? #40  
For sure, you have a unique design that would(did) require more consideration. I should have a lot of options, as I'm just doing a 20'ish by 30'ish rectangle with a simple gabled roof...:cool2:

Next week I want to explore contractors a bit, get a feel for who does what, regarding ICF's. We do have a really high quality timber framer in the area, been to some of his "raisings". Really love the aesthetics of timber framing, and the history behind it. Also have a well regarded log operation in the same area, who has built some really nice homes. I'm hoping to find an equally well regarded ICF contractor!

Here's a couple links to the local guys:
Ohio Timber Frame Construction | OakBridge Timber Framing
Log Homes | Log Home Floorplans | Hochstetler Milling

A straight forward layout such as you describe lends itself well to timber frame and SIPs. I'm wary of log homes simply because of the maintenance issues, settling, and FLIES. I know many of these issues have been resolved over the years with improved products and techniques but, at my age, I wanted LOW MAINTENANCE. If you can find a standard layout which gives you what you want, I'd recommend going that route. Then take the money you save by not going down the custom design wormhole and add some unique finishes and features to your place to make it your own.
 

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