At Home In The Woods

[Obed]

Chairs for the Wire
Using or not using chairs under the wire evoked quite a lot of comments in this post. I read the comments Friday regarding the chairs and I can see the advantages. So I called a general contractor friend that I trust who is an hour away and asked his opinion. He said he only uses wire chairs if an inspector requires them. He said that the chairs fall over and that they get in the way of the workers who will have trouble walking on the wire. He said you have to have trustworthy workers who are conscientious about pulling up the wire, chairs or no chairs.

Well, Friday evening I went to Lowes and Home Depot. Neither place sold chairs for wire. All the chairs were for supporting rebar and were too tall (3 1/2 to 4 inches). I later talked to our CM who said that putting chairs under the wire would just make the concrete crew mad when they showed up onsite. He was very much against using them even if I installed them myself. To be able to install the available rebar chairs under the wire, I'd have to jury rig the metal chairs used for pairs of rebair in footers and bend them over to be 2 inches high. Using wire chairs was quite an uphill battle so I ended up not using chairs. It appears that using chairs under wire in this area is rarely done.

Monday when the pouring started, the CM made a point to tell the concrete workers to pull up the wire. I observed that the workers were very conscientious about pulling up the wire. If you look closely at the pictures, you can see the workers pulling up the wire, either with their rakes or bending over and pulling with their hands. Was the work perfect? Probably not. Was the work good enough? I'm going to believe it was. Anyway, there's no use worrying about it further.

 

[Obed]

Are you using the same people on your slab that did your walls?

Eddie, we have 3 entities involved in our concrete work. We hired a foundation contractor to dig the footers under all the exterior walls and retaining walls and to pour the concrete walls. His footer and wall work looked really good to me. Next our construction contractor and his son did the prep work for the slabs including gravel under the slabs, footers for the interior load bearing walls in the basement, rebar and wire. We hired a concrete contractor and his crew to pour the slabs and do the flatwork.

Yes, we had some challenges with the prep work but I believe we got most of the issues rectified (including rebar in all the footers, compacting the gravel, and testing the plumbing) before the concrete was poured. At least that's what I'm choosing to believe. Otherwise I'd never sleep.

Obed

 

[dcyrilc]

It looks like you've addressed all of the critical items and it sounds like the weather's working with you. You won't regrett spending the extra effort for the drains, gravel, wire and slabs. It pays off in the long run!

You've got a beautiful start on a beautiful home. Sit back, take a deep breath, let it out slow, and sleep well tonight. You've earned it!

 

[Obed]

I have to say that our first week living in the camper on our property was filled with excitement. If you recall, last Wed. we had a wind storm that knocked down trees, dropped a limb on the top of the camper and poked a hole in the awning that covers the slideout roof. This weekend, my wife woke me up at 3:30 AM saying we had a leak in the roof. I went into the kitchen and there was a steady stream of rain water coming through the ceiling. The kitchen vinyl floor was covered with water and more rain water was coming through the ceiling at an alarming rate. My wife initially put our 2 largest pots on the floor to collect the water but they were filling much too fast. We ended up using a large cooler to collect the deluge.

I quickly got dressed and got a flashlight, went outside and climbed onto the roof. I found a hole in our aluminum roof about the size of 2 golf balls sitting side-by-side. Apparently, the limb that had poked a hole in our awning during the wind storm earlier in the week had also poked a hole through the aluminum roof. Unfortunately, I did not see the hole when I had initially inspected the damage.

The rain was collecting on the roof and running into this hole. It was 32 degrees F, raining continuously, and dark. I had to find some way to stop the water from running into the hole. I put my finger in the hole and lifted up on the aluminum and found if the alumnum was lifted high enough the water would flow around the hole instead of into it. I ended up placing a small 2 inch long stick through the hole and lodging the stick between the aluminum and the rafter below it. Doing so raised the aluminum high enough to cause the roof water to go around the hole instead of through it. I placed a bucket over the hole to complete the temporary repair. After 90 minutes in the cold and rain, I went back to bed.

Monday evening, I used this stuff Quick Roof to repair the hole. I cut and glued a piece of wood on top of the rafter and below the aluminum roof to elevate the roof at that spot. I then glued a piece of aluminum flashing over the hole. Lastly, I covered the area with a piece of Quick Roof.

 

[EddieWalker]

What's done is done.

I don't even know if chairs for wire exist. I've never seen them, or even heard of them. Chairs are used for rebar, and I saw that they were in place for your rebar. In my opinion, wire is used by guys who like to take shortcuts. It's why I thought there was two different contractors doing the concrete work for you. One set of pics show it done right, then there's the wire. I like rebar. I use rebar. I like it for a bunch of reasons, but most of all, it's always where I want it when I pour concrete. It works 100% of the time. It's more work in prep, and I think that's the reason some guys use wire. Personally, I think wire should be outlawed.

I see something totally different then you do in your pictures. I see thousands of pounds of concrete on wire with people standing on that wire, and nobody around to pull it up. I don't know how long you watched them, but I can gurantee you that the wire is at the bottom of your slab. Pulling wire up while spreading concrete is EXTREMLY dificult. You have to do it while spreading the mud, and keep at it during the entire job. There's too many people watching, and not enough pulling wire.

Thankfully, you have pictures to prove this. I'd hate to think of what would happen if you took him to court, but at least you have the ammo you need to win the case. One thing in your favor is that the slab is an interior wall and if I understand correctly, it will be heated and cooled. This will cut down on movement and the degree of cracking that you will encounter.

You didn't mention what the final decision was on putting rebar in the footings?

I'm also very curious why you didn't use the good crew who did your walls when doing your slab?

Eddie

 

[Obed]

Eddie,
I watched the workers initially. My wife stayed there and watched them during the entire pour. And I can confidentially say they were working hard at pulling up the wire. One person directed the concrete coming out of the pump truck while another worker beside him was continuously pulling up on the wire. You can see that in the pictures if you know to look for it. I don't think they could tried harder to pull up the wire. And the crew wasn't normally standing around watching. If it appears like that in the pictures, that's not really my observation. I have no issues with the quality of the flatwork contractor's work.

I'm not trying to argue wire vs. rebar. We put rebar in the main floor garage slab and wire in the basement.

Yes, we put rebar in all the footers.

Obed

 

[dcyrilc]

What's done is done.

I don't even know if chairs for wire exist. I've never seen them, or even heard of them. Chairs are used for rebar, and I saw that they were in place for your rebar. In my opinion, wire is used by guys who like to take shortcuts. It's why I thought there was two different contractors doing the concrete work for you. One set of pics show it done right, then there's the wire. I like rebar. I use rebar. I like it for a bunch of reasons, but most of all, it's always where I want it when I pour concrete. It works 100% of the time. It's more work in prep, and I think that's the reason some guys use wire. Personally, I think wire should be outlawed.

I see something totally different then you do in your pictures. I see thousands of pounds of concrete on wire with people standing on that wire, and nobody around to pull it up. I don't know how long you watched them, but I can gurantee you that the wire is at the bottom of your slab. Pulling wire up while spreading concrete is EXTREMLY dificult. You have to do it while spreading the mud, and keep at it during the entire job. There's too many people watching, and not enough pulling wire.

Thankfully, you have pictures to prove this. I'd hate to think of what would happen if you took him to court, but at least you have the ammo you need to win the case. One thing in your favor is that the slab is an interior wall and if I understand correctly, it will be heated and cooled. This will cut down on movement and the degree of cracking that you will encounter.

You didn't mention what the final decision was on putting rebar in the footings?

I'm also very curious why you didn't use the good crew who did your walls when doing your slab?

Eddie

Eddie,
I agree with you as to the benifets of rebar over wire and how hard it is to keep wire in place, but I think Obed has done a fine job at trying to address the issues brought to his attention and will probably have some of the best concrete work in a home in his area.

Listening to your opinion on the value of rebar leaves me wondering if you still poar the garbage they sell as concrete for homes or if you also take the extra step to move up to structural concrete with larger rock, specified angulars in the sand, fly ash, etc and poar it at the 2-3" slump it should be? You could even move up to a 7-1/2 sack bridge mix and with the right amount of rebar, gravel wouldn't mater because you could carry a semi on the open span.

My point is, he has done a superb job with the information, time, and materials available to him. He should be proud of the job he has done. And we should support him in the effort he has taken.

 

[EddieWalker]

It's not my intention to critisize or bad mouth what was done. I really do try to be complimentary in my replies, but when I see something that I don't undestand, I ask questions. When I see or read something that I think might be a problem, I like to mention it.

I've poured a few pads, and hired crews to pour pads. It's not very complicated, but it is physical. Crews will slack off if you let them, and subs are famous for inventing stories in why they are doing what they are doing. The worse is when they say it's what everyone does. That's a big red flag for me.

I also understand that pictures do not show a complete picture. I looked at all of them, and while there are several that show the same thing, this one is the most obvious. There's proably five yards of mud on the ground. There's two guys spreading it with rakes, and two guys working the hose. You can see very clearly that the wire is flat on the ground. When pulled up, it should be in the middle of the mud.

There are allot of reasons that pulling wire is hard. First, it's under some very heavy concrete. It's full of rocks, and it's getting thicker by the second. Then there is the trick of pulling it up and not pushing it down at the same time by walking on it.

When done properly, wire is better then rebar. I know this to be true, and agree with it. The problem is that it's almost impossible to do it properly.

Unfortunatley, issues with a slab will take years, and even decades to develop.

Eddie

 

[dcyrilc]

It's not my intention to critisize or bad mouth what was done. I really do try to be complimentary in my replies, but when I see something that I don't undestand, I ask questions. When I see or read something that I think might be a problem, I like to mention it.

I've poured a few pads, and hired crews to pour pads. It's not very complicated, but it is physical. Crews will slack off if you let them, and subs are famous for inventing stories in why they are doing what they are doing. The worse is when they say it's what everyone does. That's a big red flag for me.

I also understand that pictures do not show a complete picture. I looked at all of them, and while there are several that show the same thing, this one is the most obvious. There's proably five yards of mud on the ground. There's two guys spreading it with rakes, and two guys working the hose. You can see very clearly that the wire is flat on the ground. When pulled up, it should be in the middle of the mud.

There are allot of reasons that pulling wire is hard. First, it's under some very heavy concrete. It's full of rocks, and it's getting thicker by the second. Then there is the trick of pulling it up and not pushing it down at the same time by walking on it.

When done properly, wire is better then rebar. I know this to be true, and agree with it. The problem is that it's almost impossible to do it properly.

Unfortunatley, issues with a slab will take years, and even decades to develop.

Eddie

Eddie,

I agree with you here absolutely, except that I would still take #4 bar at 12" OC over wire. I didn't mean to critisize you per-se, but rather wanted you to realize that you were comming across pretty gruff and as you said at the beginning of your first post today, "What's done is done." The time for advice on the slab is past, and the time for our praise and support of his efforts is here. I have no doubt that the last week has been very stressful for him. No doubt, the leak didn't help any either.

OK, I'm done scolding.


Obed,

What's next for your schedule? Do you get an emotional break before you move to the next step? Can you sit back and enjoy Christmas before you go again? And by the way, Merry Christmas all!

 

[JB4310]

Well just another perspective and opinion based on my experience, not disagreeing with anyone.
I don't think OP needs to loose a minute of sleep over the way the wire was installed, here's why I say this. I have personally cut opened, conservatively 1000 residential basement floors and only 5% of those had any wire at all, and most of those were in attached dwellings like condos.

Wire does not prevent cracking it only prevents separation after cracking, that's why it's used in city side walks, driveway aprons, anywhere exposed to frost movement or heavy traffic, garages etc, especially slabs unprotected by frost walls, curbs or foundations around there perimeters.

Look at a residential basement floor it has none of those threats, it does nothing structural it's just a finished walking surface. No frost threat, no vehicle traffic, cracks are normal but they can't separate as the entire slab is locked in around the perimeter.
Granted 50% of the houses I've worked on are 50+ years old but many are only a few years old.

Obed are they going to saw cut stress relief joints in the new slab, that will help prevent cracks from running wild across the floor. That can be done easily up to 2 days after pour when concrete is still green, after that it's much harder. Or maybe they installed expansion joints? Looks like they didn't skimp on the thickness of the slabs.

IMO sub slab drainage is critical, some locals prefer exterior storm water management, are you doing any type of basement storm water drainage system?

JB.