ATF for flushing water-contaminated hydro fluid?

[Crashcup]

Hi, I've got to try again to flush out the milky oil in the hydraulics.

I've read good info here on how to approach this. One suggestion included using a ATF/diesel/alcohol flush.

Is there something about ATF that makes it good for that, as opposed to hydraulic fluid? I can't seem to find ATF for less than around $3/qt. The trans/hyd fluid I get from tractor supply is $32 for 5 gallons, or $1.60/qt.

Rather go with the cheaper option unless ATF does a better job with the flush

TIA,
Keith

 

[J_J]

What you purchased should work OK.

You are just trying to remove all the water you can, so with all the flushes, and the heat, you should be alright.

 

[RoMad]

How are you going to flush it?

 

[Crashcup]

I'm just talking about filling with hyd fluid, kerosene, rubbing alcohol mix, then wrking it to get fluid as hot as possible, drain immediately.

Not like a power flsh.

 

[glastron23]

instead of going through all the problems of draining the system and adding the mixture of atf,diesel and alcohol (real waste of good alcohol by the way LOL)draining the tank/system again then refilling with hydraulic oil (which will now be contaminated with atf/deisel/alcohol) why not just drain the tank and then add an temporary external filter system with a water absorbing filter. 10.7 in. Long 10 Micron Water Absorbing Filter Element | Princess Auto just add this to the tank port of the valve body and refill the tank with hydraulic oil and run the machine. the small amount of oil left in the system will soon be filtered out.. a lot less messy and safer for the hydraulic system Jim

 

[Crashcup]

Thanks, Glastron. That sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure where to hook up the filter. I have to go out and look... You're saying somewhere on the valve body for the FEL controls, connect it from the port that goes to tank? I'd have to buy a filter mount also and a few fittings to connect it.

Do those filter out emulsified water? Ya know, the milky oil.

 

[Crashcup]

Jim, have you used that method with that filter? Wondering what your experience was with it.

I did some searching and found that some water-absorbing filters state that they absorb free and emulsified water, and some say they remove free water. Since the latter isn't specific about emulsified water, I'd assume they don't absorb it. The Donaldson filter from Princess Auto falls in that group - says it absorbs free water.

Parker's website shows filters that absorb free and emulsified water, but also says this:
"When using FW or Spin-0n Cartridges to remove water from hydraulic fluids, the reservoir should be drained and refilled with clean dry fluid before the new cartridge is installed. A milky color indicates the hydraulic fluid has a high water PPM count and has exceeded the water removal capabilities of industry-available, water-removing filters."

That makes me doubt whether a filter would do what I need. Of course, this is just from reading, not from any experience.

 

[hosspuller]

I would not use anything but hydraulic fluid to flush. diesel/alcohol will not provide proper lubrication to the pump or seals as you work the system. Drain the free water out of the tank, leave the tank open to vent moisture as you heat the oil.

What was the cause of the water contamination? Did you fix the cause ?

 

[Crashcup]

Hey Hoss, previous owner stored it outside for years. I'm guessing water was able to get in around the shift boot. (Not that he offered any info about water in the oil). I have it in a shed now.

There seem to be strong opinions about this topic, and maybe the "best" way is multiple iterations of drain and refill with hydraulic fluid. BUT... the cheapest fluid I can get is $32 for 5 gallons, and at 20 gal / change, that's over $120 each time. For a $3400 tractor, I'm willing to try the ATF/diesel/alcohol flush.

 

[Soundguy]

not a waste of alcohol...

alcohol is a polar solvent. water is polar. adding alcohol to a wet sump will disolve the water so that it can be flushed out ( drained ) in SOLOUTION not suspension, as with regular detergents.. or simply mechanical expulsion.

here's why the atf= solvent=alcohol mix works decently.

1, aft is a good light weight oil that is pretty universally compatible and won't damage anything in a hyds system. it has detergents too.. so some debris will be carried out during the flush in suspension.

2, diesel/mineral spirits / kerosene is a good mild petro solvent. it will thin the mix and makie draining easier and faster and have a better chance of getting stuff out of a sump.. including thick stable emulsified oil/water slime that may be sticking to walls of the sump. the diesel or kerosene shouldn't be a problem.. if it is, then millions of dollars in heavy equipment and tractors at my day job ( general contractor ) and my home farm, have been lieing these past decades we've been doing it.

3, when you add alcohol to water you get something new. an azeotrope. an azeotrope will actually flash off FASTER than either of it's constituants will. thus adding alcohol to a wet sump will help it dewater FASTER than just running it and waiting for it to flass off via heat alone.

look at commercialproductgs that do this. transtune seafoam. read the MSDS.

to the op. do whatever you want. not my machine.

running water in a hyd system will lead to cavitation . cavitation will lead to degredation of all the parts in the system that costs lots of money. like PUMPS.

instead of going through all the problems of draining the system and adding the mixture of atf,diesel and alcohol (real waste of good alcohol by the way LOL)draining the tank/system again then refilling with hydraulic oil (which will now be contaminated with atf/deisel/alcohol) why not just drain the tank and then add an temporary external filter system with a water absorbing filter. 10.7 in. Long 10 Micron Water Absorbing Filter Element | Princess Auto just add this to the tank port of the valve body and refill the tank with hydraulic oil and run the machine. the small amount of oil left in the system will soon be filtered out.. a lot less messy and safer for the hydraulic system Jim

 

[Coyote machine]

I'd be cautious about using a spin on type water separation filter, because of the pressures involved in the hydraulics are more than that type of filter is likely designed to handle. If you could use on the low pressure side of the system, probably not a problem. I think it is worth a try to try and 'dry' the oil this way. Those filters are used a lot on boat fuel systems, and work well to remove water in the fuel. Not sure you'd get one to remove the 'mud' you're dealing with but maybe trying it is the best way to find out.
Good luck, and remember to keep away from any hyd oil under pressure.

 

[glastron23]

crashcup.. we do this to all of the bucket trucks when we do their annual inspections. the lifts have to be no conductive so the oil has to be free of moisture since that could/will cause a path for electricity to follow. you will have to get a filter head and a hose that will connect to the tank/out port on the valve bank to the in port on the filter head, hook the factory hose to the out port on the filter head. just run the system normally. the filter that i showed will do the job, the filters we use (3) filter the oil to 3 microns and remove moisture, they cost about $125 each, these are overkill for your problem. to test for water you can do a crackle test. just take a sample of about 6 ounces, an old pie plate, a temperature gauge and a torch. put the oil in the plate, angle it so it pools in the corner and heat the bottom of the pie plate. when the oil gets to about 220/240 degrees if water is present it will boil and crackle(you will see it bubble) in the plate be careful ITS HOT.. Jim

 

[Gale Hawkins]

not a waste of alcohol...

alcohol is a polar solvent. water is polar. adding alcohol to a wet sump will disolve the water so that it can be flushed out ( drained ) in SOLOUTION not suspension, as with regular detergents.. or simply mechanical expulsion.

here's why the atf= solvent=alcohol mix works decently.

1, aft is a good light weight oil that is pretty universally compatible and won't damage anything in a hyds system. it has detergents too.. so some debris will be carried out during the flush in suspension.

2, diesel/mineral spirits / kerosene is a good mild petro solvent. it will thin the mix and makie draining easier and faster and have a better chance of getting stuff out of a sump.. including thick stable emulsified oil/water slime that may be sticking to walls of the sump. the diesel or kerosene shouldn't be a problem.. if it is, then millions of dollars in heavy equipment and tractors at my day job ( general contractor ) and my home farm, have been lieing these past decades we've been doing it.

3, when you add alcohol to water you get something new. an azeotrope. an azeotrope will actually flash off FASTER than either of it's constituants will. thus adding alcohol to a wet sump will help it dewater FASTER than just running it and waiting for it to flass off via heat alone.

look at commercialproductgs that do this. transtune seafoam. read the MSDS.

to the op. do whatever you want. not my machine.

running water in a hyd system will lead to cavitation . cavitation will lead to degredation of all the parts in the system that costs lots of money. like PUMPS.

I have used both regular and Transtune Sea Foam in the backhoe that helped some. The fact the alcohol cooks off taking the water with it is a plus.

Another thing I learned by accident was backing out the main low point drain plug and let out a few oz of UTF after working it a few hours can yield some mostly clear water. I have seen this be the case a couple hours after doing a full drain and filter change. The only thing I can think is the water that forms in the cylinders keeps trying to get back to the low point slump. Alcohol can reach that trapped water.

Our JD 310B BH holds 20+ gallon of UTF and expect it would take 80 gallons to get that last drop from the system. Alcohol put into warm UTF will not hurt the film quality much but I would not work it hard with a large amount of alcohol in it but do something like have my son move every cylinder full stroke 10 times and that includes the stabilizers and steering max which is easy when the front tires are off the ground.

With that being said most all machines have some water in the mix.

 

[Soundguy]

yep. I wouldn't put a huge amount of alcohol it. remember. water that comes into contact will be solvated. a pint every 5g may be plenty. and pretty diluted ( safely ) too.

 

[Crashcup]

Follow up to my earlier questions. I did go ahead and add ATF, 93% isopropyl alcohol, and kerosene, then worked the hydraulics as hard as I could to warm it up. Drained, refilled with new fluid.

It's been several weeks now and the oil still looks very clean. I do believe I finally got the majority of the water out!

 

[Soundguy]

sounds great.

as a preventative you can add a can of transtune seafoam to the mix.. it will help evacuate any incedental water getting in.. or.. just keep running it up to temps each time you use it to flash it off.