Backhoes and loaded tires

[PA452]

When the tires are off the ground being held up by stabilizers you致e got maybe a ton of tire and fluid hanging on the axle. And it痴 just a static load. No bouncing, rolling, or side pressure. When the tire is in the ground you致e got 3 tons of machine sitting on them shared between both of them.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know. But it's not entirely an apples to apples comparison either. The weight applied to the axles while sitting on the wheels is applied one direction. The weight of loaded wheels hanging off the axles of a raised tractor is applied the opposite direction. Maybe they just didn't design it for that?

 

[4570Man]

They’re taper roller bearings. It makes no difference. Now I guess you could say the housing is thicker on the topside but all the ones I’ve seen are uniform. Even if they were built stronger on top they should be being the weight of the machine driving around hitting bumps plus the traction of the tire pushing the machine forward is way more than the weight of the tires.

 

[PA452]

Yeah, it wasn't the bearings I had in mind. Regardless, I'm just guessing. I'm sure there's some reason our manuals say don't load the tires with a backhoe.

 

[4570Man]

Yeah, it wasn't the bearings I had in mind. Regardless, I'm just guessing. I'm sure there's some reason our manuals say don't load the tires with a backhoe.

Maybe it’s nothing to do with the axel and they’re worried about the excess weight causing wear on the transmission or possibly damaging the front loader with more traction. On the flip side it’s stressing the weakest point of the drive train the front axel less.

 

[Diggin It]

This has been coming up periodically for almost 20 years! When I bought my 4560 backhoe back then, the dealer told me the issue with backhoes and loaded tires had nothing to do with tires, axles, hydraulics, or chassis strength... it was a physics issue with rotational moments of force in a rollover. The ROPS can generally prevent a 180 or 360 deg. rollover with a backhoe OR loaded tires + an implement in back but would not do as well with backhoe + loaded tires. So, according to those guys, it's a corporate CYA thing to advise against this practice. That sort of made sense to me at the time, but it probably hasn't held back many owners from loading their tires! I do know that backhoe was one heavy son of a gun and really planted the back end of the tractor to the ground.

Probably makes as much sense as anything, but it would be better if they simply explained the why in the notices.

 

[Notforhire]

This has been coming up periodically for almost 20 years! When I bought my 4560 backhoe back then, the dealer told me the issue with backhoes and loaded tires had nothing to do with tires, axles, hydraulics, or chassis strength... it was a physics issue with rotational moments of force in a rollover. The ROPS can generally prevent a 180 or 360 deg. rollover with a backhoe OR loaded tires + an implement in back but would not do as well with backhoe + loaded tires. So, according to those guys, it's a corporate CYA thing to advise against this practice. That sort of made sense to me at the time, but it probably hasn't held back many owners from loading their tires! I do know that backhoe was one heavy son of a gun and really planted the back end of the tractor to the ground.

I'm with Diggin it. The explanation given by Grandad4 is about the closest thing to logic that supports this warning, that I've heard.
My dealer also suggested that it probably was more of a CYA move by the legal dept. than a (don't do this or you'll break your tractor) precaution by the engineering/design dept.

I would also agree that the loaded tires would increase the strain on the outriggers, but it must pale in comparison to the force applied to them while digging/lifting rocks or breaking roots in a trench.

 

[Notforhire]

Just for the heck of it, I looked up what the replacement cost would be for the bent main frame on the first backhoe I got. $4,427.35
That's just the part, no shipping, no installation!
I can't imagine what the total repair bill would be.

 

[Smokeydog]

Have to agree with Grandad4. Excuse rather than logic. Engineering analysis clearly hasn’t resolved the ROPS/backhoe/ballast variations so legal CYA has. Granted it would be a challenge to calculate ROPS integrity to pole vault the whole TLB backwards, downhill over a extended boom over solid rock onto the top of the ROPS where ballast in the tires would increase the impact force.

For me it is more important to prevent sideways rollover by adding ballast. I’ll bet my safety on common sense over legalese every time.

 

[RickB]

You read enough operators manuals (and I’ve been a dealership employee for almost 23 years) and you will find a lot of conflicting info, bad information and things that make you go hmmmm.

 

[Grandad4]

Granted it would be a challenge to calculate ROPS integrity to pole vault the whole TLB backwards, downhill over a extended boom over solid rock onto the top of the ROPS where ballast in the tires would increase the impact force.

A front/back rollover was probably not the major concern. A lateral rollover is much more common, wouldn't you think? Possible causes of a sideways tip over/rollover: soft ground, tire failure, sideways on a slope, or some combination thereof. Also an accident while roading, or operator error, etc. Could happen while operating the BH or just traveling about.

 

[Newby first timer]

I have an MX5800
I asked my Dealer about RimGaurd in my tires.
They told me as long as I have the Backhoe on the Tractor No RimGuard or extra Ballast
If I take the Backhoe off then I can ut RimGuard or extra Ballast on the Tractor.
I asked why.
They told me that on hills the Brakes were not strong enough to stop the Tractor and it could get out of Control.

I d not know if I believe them or not.
After my Warranty runs out I am going to put the RimGuard in the tires Because Where I am operating my tractor I have slight slopes and nothing where I would consider it unsafe to turn sharp where ever I am on my property with the exception to the dirt bridge that I built and while doing so I got to close to the edge and the Tractor started sliding sideways.
A Pucker factor of about a 9.9
I droped the FEL and the Backhoe at the same time while I was sliding and did not role it.
My feeling is if I would have had RimGuard in the tires it would have more than likely been more stable as I slid r maybe I would not have started sliding in the first place because of the lower center of gravity.

Be Safe in what you do

 

[RickB]

S

I have an MX5800
I asked my Dealer about RimGaurd in my tires.
They told me as long as I have the Backhoe on the Tractor No RimGuard or extra Ballast
If I take the Backhoe off then I can ut RimGuard or extra Ballast on the Tractor.
I asked why.
They told me that on hills the Brakes were not strong enough to stop the Tractor and it could get out of Control.

I d not know if I believe them or not.
After my Warranty runs out I am going to put the RimGuard in the tires Because Where I am operating my tractor I have slight slopes and nothing where I would consider it unsafe to turn sharp where ever I am on my property with the exception to the dirt bridge that I built and while doing so I got to close to the edge and the Tractor started sliding sideways.
A Pucker factor of about a 9.9
I droped the FEL and the Backhoe at the same time while I was sliding and did not role it.
My feeling is if I would have had RimGuard in the tires it would have more than likely been more stable as I slid r maybe I would not have started sliding in the first place because of the lower center of gravity.

Be Safe in what you do

Another uninformed dealer response.

 

[mikester]

S

[BOLD]They told me that on hills the Brakes were not strong enough to stop the Tractor and it could get out of Control.[/BOLD]

Another uninformed dealer response.

Is vehicle weight and speed affecting stopping distance not part of the commercial truck and air brake license exams in NC?

 

[Notforhire]

Is vehicle weight and speed affecting stopping distance not part of the commercial truck and air brake license exams in NC?

I'm not sure that I understand what your getting at. Would you please explain further?

 

[Diggin It]

I'm not sure that I understand what your getting at. Would you please explain further?

Part of the nature of TBN is thread drift, so you have to follow the bread crumbs ...


Your original question was addressed here:

I asked my Dealer about RimGaurd in my tires.
They told me as long as I have the Backhoe on the Tractor No RimGuard or extra Ballast
If I take the Backhoe off then I can ut RimGuard or extra Ballast on the Tractor.
I asked why.
They told me that on hills the Brakes were not strong enough to stop the Tractor and it could get out of Control.

Which got this response:

Another uninformed dealer response.

Thread drift begins here expanding on the discussion of vehicle braking power:

Is vehicle weight and speed affecting stopping distance not part of the commercial truck and air brake license exams in NC?

 

[RickB]

Is vehicle weight and speed affecting stopping distance not part of the commercial truck and air brake license exams in NC?

manufacturers equip tractors with fixed drawbars designed to attach, pull and stop implements such as dump trailers capable of hauling the weight of the tractor and (in many cases more) without brakes on the implement. Do you really think adding liquid ballast to a tractor equipped with a backhoe will compromise the braking ability?

 

[Smokeydog]

Good point. My manure spreader was far more heavy and dangerous than any backhoe I have had. Pulling it without ballast in the tires would not be safe at all.

 

[Fallon]

manufacturers equip tractors with fixed drawbars designed to attach, pull and stop implements such as dump trailers capable of hauling the weight of the tractor and (in many cases more) without brakes on the implement. Do you really think adding liquid ballast to a tractor equipped with a backhoe will compromise the braking ability?

Ya. More weight means harder to stop for sure. But the weight of loaded tires & a hoe pales in comparison to a lot of trailers with no brakes that they are rated to tow.

 

[masscity]

in 2012 I bought a L3540HSTC with a L724 FEL and a BH92 Backhoe. Both or oversized for the tractor. Also got loaded R1 tires, not as heavy as R4's, also 165 lbs of wheel weights on both sides.

They never mentioned anything about the extra weight.

 

[Notforhire]

in 2012 I bought a L3540HSTC with a L724 FEL and a BH92 Backhoe. Both or oversized for the tractor. Also got loaded R1 tires, not as heavy as R4's, also 165 lbs of wheel weights on both sides.

They never mentioned anything about the extra weight.

If by "They" you mean your dealer, I'm not surprised.

My dealer said they wouldn't sell a tractor with a loader without loaded tires.

The warning saying the tires should be unloaded before mounting a backhoe came right from my operators manual.

Take a look in your OM and see what it says.