Bad Battery?

/ Bad Battery? #1  

UncleBuck01

Silver Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
221
Location
NY
Tractor
Mahindra 4110
With -10 or worse temps in morning, for over a week, battery was unable to start my tractor, had to put the charger on 50 amp charge for 5 minutes, tractor started. next morning same thing. after third time I put a 1 1/2 amp auto trickle charger for overnite charge, the next morning trickle charger red light was on meaning the battery was charged, went to start tractor, won't start after a slow crank, again put a 50 amp charger for 5 minutes and it starts. Bad battery? or electrical problem on tractor ? With the weather so cold, started to use the glow plugs 4 / 5 times to start tractor - could that have been too much for a two+ year old battery
Buck
 
/ Bad Battery? #2  
At those temps suggest you apply a little heat to the tractor to aid in starting. The battery is probably okay. In cold weather a small trickle charger on the battery is a good thing.

Egon
 
/ Bad Battery? #3  
I got this from a site, I beleive this would be the main culprit.

Temperature Effects on Batteries


Battery capacity (how many amp-hours it can hold) is reduced as temperature goes down, and increased as temperature goes up. This is why your car battery dies on a cold winter morning, even though it worked fine the previous afternoon. If your batteries spend part of the year shivering in the cold, the reduced capacity has to be taken into account when sizing the system batteries. The standard rating for batteries is at room temperature - 25 degrees C (about 77 F). At approximately -22 degrees F (-27 C), battery AH capacity drops to 50%. At freezing, capacity is reduced by 20%. Capacity is increased at higher temperatures - at 122 degrees F, battery capacity would be about 12% higher.



Battery charging voltage also changes with temperature. It will vary from about 2.74 volts per cell (16.4 volts) at -40 C to 2.3 volts per cell (13.8 volts) at 50 C. This is why you should have temperature compensation on your charger or charge control if your batteries are outside and/or subject to wide temperature variations. Some charge controls have temperature compensation built in (such as Morningstar) - this works fine if the controller is subject to the same temperatures as the batteries. However, if your batteries are outside, and the controller is inside, it does not work that well. Adding another complication is that large battery banks make up a large thermal mass.



Thermal mass means that because they have so much mass, they will change internal temperature much slower than the surrounding air temperature. A large insulated battery bank may vary as little as 10 degrees over 24 hours internally, even though the air temperature varies from 20 to 70 degrees. For this reason, external (add-on) temperature sensors should be attached to one of the POSITIVE plate terminals, and bundled up a little with some type of insulation on the terminal. The sensor will then read very close to the actual internal battery temperature.

Even though battery capacity at high temperatures is higher, battery life is shortened. Battery capacity is reduced by 50% at -22 degrees F - but battery LIFE increases by about 60%. Battery life is reduced at higher temperatures - for every 15 degrees F over 77, battery life is cut in half. This holds true for ANY type of Lead-Acid battery, whether sealed, gelled, AGM, industrial or whatever. This is actually not as bad as it seems, as the battery will tend to average out the good and bad times. Click on the small graph to see a full size chart of temperature vs capacity.



One last note on temperatures - in some places that have extremely cold or hot conditions, batteries may be sold locally that are NOT standard electrolyte (acid) strengths. The electrolyte may be stronger (for cold) or weaker (for very hot) climates. In such cases, the specific gravity and the voltages may vary from what we show.
 
/ Bad Battery? #4  
So this is outside, uncovered, with no block heater or anything?

My tractor is about 2 years old now and I have no trouble so I'm guessing the battery is tired. I'd just hang on until the weather warms up and see if it works ok because the 10 below weather we've had is unusual.

Get a block heater if you don't have one. It really helps
 
/ Bad Battery?
  • Thread Starter
#5  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( So this is outside, uncovered, with no block heater or anything?
Get a block heater if you don't have one. It really helps )</font>

ByronBob
Its in a unheated garage. I put a lower radiator hose heater in yesterday, plugged it in 5:00 am this morning, tried to start at 8:30 am, idling as I type , again slow crank- needed 50 amp charger to start

Grumpa
temp this morning was 8 above at 5:00 am, Should I take the Battery in the basement and charge it down there??
Ran the tractor yesterday for two hours and put it to bed at 5:00 pm, I restarted the tractor at that time so the battery had charge - must have lost it over night
Buck
 
/ Bad Battery? #6  
You need to keep your battery warm. I spent a week in continuous below zero weather one winter, and the only way I could start my car to get to work in the mornings was to take my battery indoors and re-install in the morning. Had no starting problems doing that.
 
/ Bad Battery? #7  
Buck our other house in the mountains gets kinda on the cold side but nothing like you get. Up there we are dependent on solar power and batteries, so over the years I've done alot of research on batteries and related. Any battery that gets cold produces a process thats cold calcification, in short it weakens your battery and more often than not will destroy it. Had 4 deep cycle batteries I allowed to get cold and now they only hold half charge and thats when they were 2mo old.

Any battery you want to work in cold weather should be at least warm, if it requires a person to remove the battery and put it inside so be it. There is also a little unknown gizmo called a pulsator that most often times brings even old batteries back to life. Just go into e-bay and type in the search window 12v pulsator, it's a little not to well known device that works wonders.
 
/ Bad Battery? #8  
You haven't said anything about cleaning the battery cable connections. It could be as simple as that. I can go out to the battery core pallet at least once a month and find a battery that is perfectly fine. Someone just didn't know/care enough to clean the connnections before they wrote off a perfectly good battery. many DIY'ers won't clean the cables clamps or the posts on the new battery either. I have also seen clamps/posts bright and shiny on top and corroded beyond belief where the connection is made, after hearing " I just cleaned the connections!". I am not making this up.
 
/ Bad Battery? #9  
You don't mention the age of the battery, so I will go on the assumption based on your description of what is happening that the battery is an older unit. The reason that you are able to start it after a fast charge is that the fast charging is disrupting the sulfate that is located at the bottom of the battery. Right now, it is marginal as for having a cell failure. The sulfate is material that has flaked off the cell material and is laying at the bottom of the battery. I would suggest that you either remove the battery and then put it on a fast charge for 5 minute, and then a slow charge for about 15 minutes. Repeat this process about 3 times and one of two things will happen. You will either rejuvenate the battery and have no more problem with it, or you will kill it completely necessitating a replacement. If the battery is in the 4 - 5 year age range, then I suggest that you just replace it with the largest cranking amp battery that will physically fit into the battery holder. Make sure that the terminals are clean when you replace it. If you find the white powdery substance on the battery cables, you might have to replace them also, since this form of corrosion has a tendency to travel along the copper wire under the plastic coating, causing high resistance and starting problems even with a new battery. There are battery rejuvenating compounds sold in some auto stores in 4 ounce bottles and I have had good luck using them to get additional years out of a battery. I wouldn't use it on the tractor battery unless you don't mind the inconvenience of a dead battery if it doesn't work long term. Also keep in mind that vibration is the enemy of all batteries. Make sure that the battery is properly secured in the battery holder and can't be moved or jarred loose.
 
/ Bad Battery? #10  
I have lived in a cold climate for a long time and have never, ever taken a battery out of a vehicle overnight to make sure that it will start the next morning. I have never heard of anyone else that does that.

I have a pickup, a car and a tractor. The pickup and the car sit outside, never get plugged in and they always start.

In my previous Volvo car, the original battery lasted for 10 years before it was replaced one summer when I suspected it would not last the next winter. I can't explain why they start, they just do.

Richard
 
/ Bad Battery? #11  
Over the years batteries have been improved a great deal. Taking in a battery was quite common procedure at one time.

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
/ Bad Battery? #12  
the battery in 5 tractor is 5 years old, sits in an unheated garage and last week the nite time tenps were 0 deg and 10 sec on the glow plugs and it started right up. in my estimation you either have a bad battery or bad charging system.
 
/ Bad Battery? #13  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Even though battery capacity at high temperatures is higher, battery life is shortened. Battery capacity is reduced by 50% at -22 degrees F - but battery LIFE increases by about 60%. Battery life is reduced at higher temperatures - for every 15 degrees F over 77, battery life is cut in half. )</font>

grumpa i would never have beleived that statement till my daughter moved to phoenix, seems like every time i talk to here she is replacing the battery in her car, whereas up here batteries last a bout 5 years. seems like the heat just fries them.
 
/ Bad Battery? #14  
The low-down on batteries....

Batteries in colder climates last considerably longer than they do in warmer climates. The reason is that "heat" actually ruins a battery's ability to hold that charge.

In a warmer climate, large batteries with lots of CCA's will just ensure the faster "turning' of an engine, up to a certain point. By no means will batteries with more CCA's have any more longevity in the warmer climates.

In colder climates, you need batteries with lots of CCA's, to turn that cold engine fast enough to start. Large batteries, in colder climates "seem" to have the benefit of more longevity but in reality the cold weather is actually "preserving" the battery.

In some areas, batteries can be prone to freezing. Maine used to be an example I used to hear about. Never been there, but I have been told by many that if a vehicle did not have a heater of some type, then it usually was brought in for the night.

So the factors are:
Nice, Sunny, and Warm Climates = about 2 years on quality battery

Colder, Season Changing Climates = longer battery life, about 5 years, but need more CCA's

Tundra Country (REAL freezing climates) = keep that baby warm - not 90 degrees but above freezing

Battery prices have not truly increased in 20 years. How can that be? It is due to the fact that "modern" batteries are more "environmentally friendly". Less lead and less acid = less manufacture cost but no life span.

And lastly, these new "modern" batteries no longer give any warning. They work one time, then the next time NOTHING.
 
/ Bad Battery? #15  
"I have lived in a cold climate for a long time and have never, ever taken a battery out of a vehicle overnight to make sure that it will start the next morning. I have never heard of anyone else that does that."

I guess you either have some really big batteries, or have just been lucky. Attached is a scan taken from my battery charger box.
 
Last edited:
/ Bad Battery? #16  
This is all very interesting stuff on batteries I've never know about. The bottom line is if the battery is more than a few years old and needs this kind of attention then it's time for a new one. At least this is what I do to keep my sanity over 30 dollars or so for a battery.
 
/ Bad Battery?
  • Thread Starter
#17  
Grumpa, RickB, Junkman
I have tried everything you suggested, warm in basement, clean battery cables, Fast charge & slow charge 3 times, nothing worked for my 2yr+ old battery

ByronBob
Starting my hunt for a battery, so far the cheapest price is at Tractor Supply for $69. with 925 CCA, will give my dealer a call to see if he comes close in price, I would rather
give him my business if I can.
Thanks to All
Buck
 
/ Bad Battery? #18  
Without making this a bigger deal than it is. Have you ever looked into the possibility that your alternator isn't charging properly or that something is slowly drawing power from your battery? Chances are this isn't the case because the temps were dealing with are low and that in itself is a problem for lots of batteries in everything. Just thought I'd mention it for what it's worth.
Hope this is the solution for you. $69 ouch. But it's worth having the tractor start for you anyway. Regards Bob
 
/ Bad Battery? #19  
I have not heard mention of how many volts your battery has after a supposedly full charge. A fully charged battery has at least 12.75 volts and needs a minimum of 12.6 volts for starting. "12 volt battery" is a misconception, there are six 2.1 volt cells in a 12.6 volt battery.
 
/ Bad Battery? #20  
The last "bad" battery I had actually turned out to be a bad alternator! One of the diodes (out of the 4 in the full-wave-bridge) was shorted, and allowed enough leakage current "backwards" through the diode to ground that it would drain the battery overnight. This happened even with the key off. Try taking a small 12v light bulb (borrow one from the tailights), disconnect one of the battery terminals, and hook the bulb up in series between the battery terminal and the battery post. If the bulb lights, (with the key off) it's a bad alternator diode.
 

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