Ballast/Counterweight

[glennmac]

I would think it would be difficult to find an elegant 3ph counterbalance solution for a loader that can lift as much as the 852. I suggest you overcome your tire filling reluctance. That is the obvious solution. I see no downside to tire filling unless you are finish mowing or driving a lot on soft ground. Unless you have a lot of money to blow on all foam, you could go Rimguard in the rears and foam in the fronts.

As to rear counterweight, I believe that whatever you have hanging back there ought to serve some useful purpose other than being just a counterweight. That's why I dont care for weight blocks.

I use a Walco 3ph dump box. You can carry things in or on it, and it dumps. For ballast, I use 70 lb. sand tubes. You can put in as many as you want to adjust ballast. The dump box comes in two sizes, but does take up space. Not as much as a shredder, however.

 

[patrickg]

Twinklle toes, Thanks for agreeing with me even though it might not be intentional. You rang in on the side of engineering analysis with your comments regarding the rotation being around the front axle and your giving importance to the actual length of the respective lever arms. Well said, better than I worded it and your description is much more realistic than, "just make 'em equal". Hope our being in agreement doesn't dissapoint you.

As long as we can keep track of the difference between attacking or "exploring" a concept or statement and attacking the individual I think no harm is done. I sure did not intend any of my comments to neccessitate "the cavalry" to defend John. I think John is an asset to our forum even if not a member, and I'm sure if we ever had the opportunity to meet would get along fine, even though not always 100% in lockstep.

Hope Santa was good to you, I made out OK.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Egon, Thanks for the comment. Actually given the location of my tank and its miniscule size I was basically ignorinig it, thinking it to be "down in the noise". I have a concern for free surfaces in dynamic situations but I think it is baffled well and is such a small part of the problem as to be negligible. In the past some folks have used water tanks for ballast thinking it is so easy to adjust the ballast as needed. Unfortunately for those not familiar with the dynamics of a free surface who filled their ballast tank about 1/2 full there were some rude awakenings.
Another example was some 'Vettes with huge fuel tanks (40 gal or so) mounted transversely by the rear axle. With inadequate baffles, they were fun to watch in tight manuevering.

Patrick

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Patrick,

I think we can agree to disagree/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Santa was good to me, she knows what is good for me..austerity.

You and your family have a happy holiday season/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Al

 

[patrickg]

GLENMAC, We are convergent. I am leaning toward a HD carry-all platform store bought or DIY or combination More uses than just weight. Then cast some weights to use on it. I'm not saying a word against the concept of liquid ballast. It is a sound and well accepted practice, just not my preference. I can choose to afford the foam fill and be worry free for years in really bodacious brush hogging situations. I am considering wheel weights but think the removable weights for a carry-all platform to be easier to change. If I am putting an implement on the back which of course precludes the use of the weight platform then I probably don't need the weight sinice I have yet to use my drawbar. If I were dirt farming, wheel weights and filled tires would look much better to me.

I respect your thinking and will not dismiss your comments lightly. I'll take a look at tube guarding inserts and liquid fill with tubes for the rear tires before laying out the green for foam. I'll try to keep an open mind but it won't be easy since I am so concerned with losing the filling material where I don't want it or having an itsy bitsy leak ruin a wheel which might not be detected until it failed catastrophically.

Patrick

 

[glennmac]

The Arnco Superflex fill runs about $1 per pound, and I bet you can get more than 500 lbs in each rear tire. Actually, I could tell you exactly if you give me your tire sizes. I have the Arnco book.

I've been hoping someone springs for foam so we can get a complete evaluation.

I agree that loading weights on a rear platform is easier that putting it on wheels. Also, you can get more absolute weight on a platform, and you are also getting more leverage per pound of weight to counterbalance the loader weight on the front tires. Wheel weights and tire fill will prevent the rear wheels from lifting but they do not take weight off the front wheels. Only 3ph ballast will do that.

 

[patrickg]

Gee Al, I guess we could agree to dissagree. Since I was convinced we were in agreement when reading your previous post, there must be another topic you want to dissagree about. I'll give it a whirl, what you got in mind?

Oh by the way, Glennmac's latest post on this topic brings out yet more important informal engineering analysis. I love this forum, having access to so much mental horsepower and experience.

Mrs. Claus was nice to me too, with flanel shirts and fleece slippers in addition to the Glock 36. She is easy, all she wants is field guides to just about all the flora and fauna in this part of the country. She has the bird, mammal, frogs, lizards, and snakes covered but wants to include the bugs (since we have so many) and the plants and trees and on and on. I've already graduated to buying thistle and sunflower seed in 50 lb lots to keep up with her "welfare"
birds and we are gearing up for the ducks, geese, turkey, and deer. I'm confused... I thought we were supposed to feed on them not feed them, oh well, a small price to pay for her smiles.

Weather dude is running amuck, predicting 10 degrees. Can't cast tractor weights at those temps. So this question

What is minimum temp for DIY redi-crete? Mixing/pouring? During first X days/hours of cure time?

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Hey Glennmac, thanks for offer of help with foam fill.

My rear tires are:

Firestone 17.5 L - 24 tubeless all traction utility (Industrial type not aggressive ag tires).

Front tires are:

Firestone 10 - 16.5 Industrial

Break-break... You guys force me to read the manual a litle closer... (the dealer didn't mention this item) and on page 57 of the "Kubota Tractor Operator's Manual" (for the L4610HSTC where directions are given for filling the tires with ballast it says and I quote, "Do not fill tires with water or solution if the tractor is a cab model."

I'm sorry for wasting anyone's time regarding discussing liquid ballast options for my tractor, there aren't any.

So, Glennmac, yes, I'm quite interested in your foam fill information.

Patrick.

 

[glennmac]

17.5 L -24 = 637 lbs per tire
10 - 16.5 = 125 lbs per tire

Find a licensed Arnco dealer. You will want the most flexible durometer fill called Superflex. It supposedly has the same vertical deflection characteristics as an air filled tire. They have a website that I think is arnco.com. Shop for prices, as I've been quoted from .99 to 1.25 per pound (but that was for small potatoes front tires on a 2910).

 

[DFB]

Patrickg,

For what its worth took a photo of the barrel/carryall over the holiday./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

DFB

 

[DFB]

Just for grins, here is a cast concrete block that was once used as a counterweight on the skidder for plowing snow. About 2'x2' 4'. Painted CAT yellow too!

FREE FOR THE TAKING /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

DFB

 

[hayden]

Why do you suppose you shouldn't fill the tires on the cab model?

 

[patrickg]

DFB, Oh yeah, real high tech stuff. When I build my carry-all platform, I think I will make it only stick about 50-60% as far back as the store bought version. Then I will use bolt on extensions to regain the "lost" capacity. I'm also thinking bolt on rather than weld on diagonal braces so I can get them out of the way when clear loading overhang space is needed but max weight carrying capacity isn't. The concrete weiights could be cast so as to extend forward of the platform, reducing the benefit of leverage just a bit but improving close in manuevering. I'm thinking of trying to brace the vertical to horizontal weld connection on the outside of the 90 degree angle so the diagonal braces won't be so important or missed as much when not affixed. Hope that makes sense.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Glennmac, Yeah, not real cheap or is it? One fill should last many years, until tires are totally destroyed or worn so badly there is just no traction A N D you never have a flat, EVER or have to do anything to the tires or wheels for years. Still given the weight involved, until I find out what the Kubota folks had in mind when they put the "don't put ballast in your tires if you have a cab" comment in my manual, I don't think I will make that investment.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Gee, aren't you worried that someone might take it with it just out there, not indoors or anything? It must only weigh about 2400 lbs.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Sorry Hayden, I already asked that question, I'm looking for the answer. Thought it might relate to cab weight but surely the weight of the cab is much less than the ballast weight (my tires will hold over a thousand pounds of CaCl solution). They could have just said only fill 1/2 (not the 3/4 recommended for non-cab models) or some such reduction.

Yet another mystery of the orient.

Patrick (got to go se some traps, big increase in beaver activity)

 

[DFB]

Alas, Gramps the creator of such a legacy is gone now. To be bequeathed to his heirs and assigns forever! /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

DFB

 

[HR_Mutt]

patrickg
My manual had the warning to not load the fronts "due to loss of steering stability". I've really tried/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif, even though I loaded them she's not unstable. IMHO the benefit of loaded tires is greater than any warning label but I'll not advise anyone else not to follow the mfg's. recommendations.
regards
Mutt

 

[patrickg]

Yeah, Mutt,
warning labels used to make sense but as crazy lawsuits became a way of life manufacturers started labeling everything to limit liability. Hence the warning on plastic glue that it is not to be taken internally and so on and so forth. I'm not agreeing or dissagreeing with the Kubota engineers, yet. I do want to know their reasoning. I find it often prudent to find out the why of a warning before violating it (which I do but prefer to do from a position of knowlege rather than the opposite). If, for instance, the liklihood of the "bad outcome" they are protecting me against is an acceptable risk to me then I'll take my chances. What IS a bad idea is to assume that because I don't know why they would issue such a warning that there is no valid reason. Since I won't be harmed if I delay a while and research the issue, that is my course. If I had a dire need for ballast and someone put a gun to my head, so to speak, I'd probably guess the weight of the cab and deduct that from the ballast weight and proceed cautiously. Luckily that is not the case.

Well the magic spell is broken. Unseasonable 60's and 70's are gone, teens are on the way and up to 3 inches of snow due this afternoon and evening. Counted 24 ducks on the small pond visible from Mom's south window and maybe 30 or so in the larger pond and 30 or so goldfinches mobbing the feeders, which need filling again (every two days) and a lone cardinal,locally named descriptively, redbird.

Patrick

 

[Bird]

<font color=blue>goldfinches mobbing the feeders, which need filling again (every two days) and a lone cardinal</font color=blue>

Patrickg, last year we had lots of goldfinches, but this Fall I hadn't even noticed any and I'd let my birdfeeder run out. So when I read your message here, I went out and filled the birdfeeder and within 30 minutes I had maybe a dozen goldfinches and a lone cardinal hen. Kinda weird. And the guestion I've wondered about in the past is how do those little birds find that food and how would they know it's there that soon after I put it out?