Barn building with tractor help?

[jdmar]

FINALLY..."Congress" has approved the budget for my barn on the new land. We are building a 36 x64 (inside dimension) barn. Cement foundation since it is on a slope. 10' first floor, and second floor with Gambrell attic/box trusses. I will stick frame the walls with 2x6 and OSB on outside (and inside after wiring and insulation). We will have a metal roof and cedar shake the outside with faux stone veneer eventually on foundation portion (about 2 feet above ground). I have a couple questions for help:
note: I am doing most of this by myself after the foundation is up.

1) Has anyone used a small tractor with bucket to lift walls into place? I am thinking of building the walls on the ground in about 15-20 foot sections (will first calculate total weight) then attaching an inverted "U" metal bracket on the wall to hook the bucket into. I can then lift them the 20-24" onto the foundation. Obviously I have to be careful about height I raise my bucket to...and about wind. Has anyone done sucha foolish thing as this!?!

2) Also I was going to use 8/12 attic trusses but my wife and I both like the gambrel look. The regular trusses can be set inverted on the first floor then rotated into place. But with Gambrell I doubt I can do this...any ideas sugestions. I might try to rent or hire a crane but wonder if I should just let a crew do this part? I guess I should get a couple bids for this part, huh?

Any advice, suggestion, experience is appreciated as always.

peter

 

[LD1]

First and obvious question is what is the lift capacity of your loader?

I don't think the walls will be a probem if it isn't windy. You see it all the time on TV where 2 or 3 guys will lift a section of wall into place. So I think a decient tractor will handle this, maybe with someone else holding(stabilizing) it until in place.

36 foot trusses are probabally too heavy for my next suggestion. When I set my lighter 30' sicssor trusses into place, we used an old 20' TV antenna tower strapped to the bottom of the bucket as a boom pole to get the height to set into place. I wish I had taken pictures of the set up.

Another option that I have seen done many times is to use an excavator to set the trusses. They usually have a pretty good reach. They are expensive to rent but I don't think they are as expensive as a crane. A few years back a frien of mine did just this. Best part was he rented it for a day and we were done in about half a day, so we used it to dig out some stumps and clear out some other dead trees that he as planning on doing at a later time. Nothing like killing 2 birds with one stone.

 

[jdmar]

I have a small tractor with bucket (JD 4300--about 32 HP). As I recall the bucket lift capacity is about 800 pounds.

I like the idea of the bucket extension to lift the trusses. I had thought about that briefly but couldn't see controlling a 20 foot plus rod from the bucket without bad momentum arms things happening (aka tip over). Maybe I will check some more details. I am sure the truss plant could give me a weight of the trusses. I even thought of renting one of those "people lifter" cranes but thought the truss might also exceed that capacity.

I like the excavator idea too. The total height to top of truss will be about 24' above the ground. But I could even lift from several feet below top of the truss.

Great ideas so far. Thanks!
Peter

 

[scgargoyle]

Go to barnplans.com and see how they do it. I'm thinking of using their plans when I build my barn. Basically, you get your 4 walls up (the loader can do that) and build the deck for your attic. Then you lay out and build the trusses up on the attic deck, then raise them from there. Even a 36' truss isn't very heavy, although I would think it would take two people to set them. I had 32' scissor trusses made for a house roof-over I did, and I could pick one up (barely). When I do my barn, I'll build the wall in shorter sections with a single top sill. I may even hinge them on the foundation somehow so I can 'walk' them up. Once they are up and braced, I'll double the top sill, being sure to stagger the joints. If you're going to use the loft, you'll either need huge floor trusses, or something in the middle of the barn to take some of the load.

 

[EddieWalker]

We are building a 36 x64 (inside dimension) barn.

10' first floor, and second floor with Gambrell attic/box trusses.

Peter,

This is gonna be quite a project. Do you have any experience building wooden structures?

I'm confused on some of what you plan to do. You mention ten foot walls on the first floor. Is the second floor going to be a space that you can use? What will it be used for?

The floor for this space at that width is going to take some serious engineering. Do you plan to span the full 36 feet without any supports/posts in the middle? You can easily put a truss over that distance, but you cannot use a roof truss as the floor for a second story. The bottom chords on the truss are designed to pull the walls together and anchor the top chords of the truss together. Then based on the width of the span, you tie into the bottom chords to the tops to build in strength. Depending on the spacing of the trusses, you can use that space for some level of storage. There is a weight limit, and it's allot less then most people realize. Some people will push this with the amount of "stuff" they store in an attic to the point of failure. I've had two jobs this year where attic trusses have started to fail and 2x4's have snapped. Both times were from Christmas "stuff" accumulating in the attic. There is a limit.

If you plan to use that second story for anything more then very limited storage, I missed what your plan was for those floor joists.

Eddie

 

[skipmarcy]

I built my house here year before last by myself and used my tractor (41 hp 4x4) to set my trusses up on the walls. I used my bucket with 24" long forks and it put the ones on the 8' house walls OK. If I remember correctly, I was able to put 3 trusses at a time on my forks. My attached garage has 10' walls and I had to borrow the ramps off my equipment trailer and get them situated just so for my front wheels to raise up to get the trusses on those walls. My trusses were 32' 2x4 pine and I was able to set them by myself OK. I had a good 12' stepladder and slid the trusses carefully along the top plates into position and stood them up myself no problem. I had manual help standing all my walls up, didn't have to use the tractor, but there's no doubt it would have handled it just fine. It only took 4 of us guys to stand up 38' long, fully framed walls. The only trouble you might encounter would be with long walls - they flex alot. I was able to stand up the two 10'x16'garage walls by myself though it was a little tough on the front one with the 2x12x10' header in it !! If you had at least someone on each end to stabilize and pushed in the middle with the loader, it would probably be OK but by yourself you will probably ruin your wall and/or get hurt.

You mentioned lifting the walls 20-24" onto the foundation - are you not standing the walls directly on your slab? I used western red cedar floor plates and 1/2" anchors into my slab.

 

[jdmar]

Peter,

This is gonna be quite a project. Do you have any experience building wooden structures?

I'm confused on some of what you plan to do. You mention ten foot walls on the first floor. Is the second floor going to be a space that you can use? What will it be used for?

The floor for this space at that width is going to take some serious engineering. Do you plan to span the full 36 feet without any supports/posts in the middle? You can easily put a truss over that distance, but you cannot use a roof truss as the floor for a second story. The bottom chords on the truss are designed to pull the walls together and anchor the top chords of the truss together. Then based on the width of the span, you tie into the bottom chords to the tops to build in strength. Depending on the spacing of the trusses, you can use that space for some level of storage. There is a weight limit, and it's allot less then most people realize. Some people will push this with the amount of "stuff" they store in an attic to the point of failure. I've had two jobs this year where attic trusses have started to fail and 2x4's have snapped. Both times were from Christmas "stuff" accumulating in the attic. There is a limit.

If you plan to use that second story for anything more then very limited storage, I missed what your plan was for those floor joists.

Eddie

I have done plenty of building..but not used a crane. My only concern is the truss portion. The rest is lot of work for a one man show but it's the trusses I will need to hire out or get help with.

I do plan to span 36' with no support below (I may add stalls later but they are not planned for required support). My local truss company (Stark Truss) has quoted me about $176 piece for the trusses with no support and a 40 PSF load rating. That includes the "floor joist" engineered as part of the truss. That is not enough PSF to store a loft full of hay but it is plenty for most storage. This load rating is acheived with 24" centers. The second floor will be 8' ceiling and 16' wide with these trusses. Yes, they will be heavy due to the size of the material. I could skip the second floor but it really adds a relatively small amount to the total barn cost while giving my lots of options--even a spot for the children's guitars and drums!! Also my wife wants it with the second floor...enough said there! The barns she grew up with all had a second floor.

 

[jdmar]

IF the weather holds, I should get the footer in tomorrow(actualy later this AM). The weather has cancelled those plans for about 5-6 days so far...project not started and already running behind! I hope I do not run into bad soil issues-my test holes all found good soil but I only dug 6 holes. Then the masons will get the CMU wall up--not worth me doing that part by myself. I hope to then get fill in to level the floor area and start the walls.

Wednesday at noon the electric company comes out and gives me the bid for the electric service-- I am REALLY afraid of that! They say they work up the cost and then I am responsible for 40% of it. I can frame without electtric using a Paslode Impulse but I certainly want some electric eventually.

If I didn't say before...I do not have any zoning/inspections issues here at all. Only the electric will be inspected. I have no problems with the inspectors, I just hate the wait that sometimes occurs.

I will try to get some pics when we get going. This barn will NOT be a fast build since I work full time also and two other jobs!

Thanks for all the ideas.
Peter

 

[jdmar]

Well, the footer got poured. Yes they poured using the dirt as walls. I have heard reasons to and not too. It has stayed wet since pour with only a dusting of dirt on the surface. At its smallest it is 25" wide by about 8" deep. One portion is just about 48" deep the other is about 22" deep (below ground level. Frost level here is 38" per zoning. The low( 22") spot is being filled with dirt on both sides almost another 2' so all will be well below frost level.

That may seem a funny way to do it--pour then fill, but I have low level muck soil and this is the only place for a barn. so I want all higher than surrounding grade and need to add some fill on the low side. I can also add an extension later for animal and be sure their feet stay dry.

The picture that looks like the footer is on grade is deceiving. The bottom of the footer is actually about 2' below the surface--just doesn't look that way in the pic.

Now I will try this photo thing. I have done it before but now have new camera, new program, and new computer!!

 

[jdmar]

Hey it worked! And it automatically did the "thumbnail thing." The nice brush hogged area is the work of my wonderful wife...not me. I guess it is fair the share seat time.
Peter

 

[flusher]

FINALLY..."Congress" has approved the budget for my barn on the new land. We are building a 36 x64 (inside dimension) barn. Cement foundation since it is on a slope. 10' first floor, and second floor with Gambrell attic/box trusses. I will stick frame the walls with 2x6 and OSB on outside (and inside after wiring and insulation). We will have a metal roof and cedar shake the outside with faux stone veneer eventually on foundation portion (about 2 feet above ground). I have a couple questions for help:
note: I am doing most of this by myself after the foundation is up.

1) Has anyone used a small tractor with bucket to lift walls into place? I am thinking of building the walls on the ground in about 15-20 foot sections (will first calculate total weight) then attaching an inverted "U" metal bracket on the wall to hook the bucket into. I can then lift them the 20-24" onto the foundation. Obviously I have to be careful about height I raise my bucket to...and about wind. Has anyone done sucha foolish thing as this!?!

2) Also I was going to use 8/12 attic trusses but my wife and I both like the gambrel look. The regular trusses can be set inverted on the first floor then rotated into place. But with Gambrell I doubt I can do this...any ideas sugestions. I might try to rent or hire a crane but wonder if I should just let a crew do this part? I guess I should get a couple bids for this part, huh?

Any advice, suggestion, experience is appreciated as always.

peter

I used the FEL on my Kubota B7510HST (21 hp engine) to install 8-ft wide 2x4 frame sections for a shed I built a few years ago. The FEL bucket is 4-ft wide and the lift capacity is about 800 lb. I had chain hooks welded onto the bucket so it was easy to chain the frames to the bucket.

Here's the finished shed

Your tractor is larger than mine so you may be able to handle larger frame sections. Good luck.

BTW: I would have the trusses installed by a contractor if it were my decision.

 

[YM-135trac]

I have done plenty of building..but not used a crane. My only concern is the truss portion. The rest is lot of work for a one man show but it's the trusses I will need to hire out or get help with.

I do plan to span 36' with no support below (I may add stalls later but they are not planned for required support). My local truss company (Stark Truss) has quoted me about $176 piece for the trusses with no support and a 40 PSF load rating. That includes the "floor joist" engineered as part of the truss. That is not enough PSF to store a loft full of hay but it is plenty for most storage. This load rating is acheived with 24" centers. The second floor will be 8' ceiling and 16' wide with these trusses. Yes, they will be heavy due to the size of the material. I could skip the second floor but it really adds a relatively small amount to the total barn cost while giving my lots of options--even a spot for the children's guitars and drums!! Also my wife wants it with the second floor...enough said there! The barns she grew up with all had a second floor.

Check-out "socket systems" dig around on that site. going to save $1000's on my barn-build. components for loft&no big$ trusses sold me. many styles. I have quality small local mill w/kiln dried rough-cut 8x8's @ good prices. just my 2 cents. I use boom pole/chain/binder mounted in fel bucket to make lifts,no heavy stuff,loader lifts,while tractor(w/good brakes) backs standing main truss up? I hope this works for me?

I like building w/good straight/dry rough cut. extra strenght @ lower cost.

 

[jdmar]

I used the FEL on my Kubota B7510HST (21 hp engine) to install 8-ft wide 2x4 frame sections for a shed I built a few years ago. The FEL bucket is 4-ft wide and the lift capacity is about 800 lb. I had chain hooks welded onto the bucket so it was easy to chain the frames to the bucket.

Your tractor is larger than mine so you may be able to handle larger frame sections. Good luck.

BTW: I would have the trusses installed by a contractor if it were my decision.

Flusher, that is exactly what I wanted to do! ..but with larger wall sections if possible. I still have to weigh a sheet of OSB and 2x6 to see how large a wall I can lift. I think the torq and wind may be more of a problem than the sheer weight though. I don't want to turn the tractor into a sailboat and get blown over when I lift the wall.

I just have to save a few pennies somewhere. And I can't lay 1000+ block, and I suspect I will have to have the trusses set for me.

I got a bid on core filling the block with foam for improved insulation....OUCH! $2210. I think I will shove some old foam coffee cups in the holes! I am actually looking for loose bags of EPS foam beeds to just pour into the holes. The blocks will be essentially air sealed, so the loose bead insulation should work well. I just need to pour it in and place the sill plate when there is no wind.

I also got a "ballpark" on my electric service. About $1500 to place one pole then lay the line to a ground set transformer near the barn. That is not an official price yet, and it does NOT include the 600 trench 42" deep and at least 1' wide (therefore can't use trencher). I then need to trench a line inot the barn to my service disconnect panel.

All his fun....

 

[jdmar]

They almost finished the foundation today. Seems they forgot about the mandoor...but that is an easy fix. I also ordered perlite to fill the block for insulation...it will get here tomorrow. My lumber for the first floor should arrive Wednesday am. I still need to pick my window size to frame for them...better hurry on that one.

Here is the foundation so far. After the masons are done I will add foam sheets to the inside and outside and get some seat time filling and leveling. I will also get some stone in here as the base for a future floor. I hope to either get some rain or a pump to pump water from the nearby creek to settle the dirt. After that it is sill plate and walls.

The first picture is my work crew..they are much better than I! The second is a foundation overview. The third is a poor attempt at sighting down the wall--the masons really did get it straight

 

[jdmar]

I started leveling the dirt inside the now finished foundation. I have the foam board all up on the inside and about half the outside. I got a guy over to give an estimate on setting the trusses. He would prefer to put up the walls and trusses at the same time so he can guarantee everthing is square and level. He would build the walls, and put those up and the trusses for about $2500. I hate to pay but I am thinking that getting it done fast and just going to work to earn the money might be smart. If I rent a crane I may end up half of that just for the trusses. I think it is time I let ambition take a back seat to wise decisions.. i.e let the pros do what the pros do. Once it is up and in-the-dry I can mess with the siding, wiring, insulation, floor etc.

Ok, let me credit my wonderful wife (aka "Congress") for the decision. She would like to see it up and me not falling off the roof....smart woman isn't she!?

Does this sound like a reasonable price (it does to me!)?

I also calculated the weight of a 16 x 8 foot wall to be about 550 pounds--well within the loader lift capability. Problem is the wind. That wall is actually a huge sail and I think it could literally blow the tractor over. This builder has his own crane and would lift the wall in sections. He is also in my small community so my money stays local...I like that. Thanks to everyone for the advice and comments..this sight is great for helping and keeping people safe (i.e. stopping people like me from making stupid decisions!)

Have a great day.
Peter

 

[jdmar]

Got my second bid...three times the price. I know the first guy will do a good job. He has been around a long time and has built 2 of the barns on my street. He has his own crane which saves some$$ also. He gets the job.

Here are pics of the leveling so far. I also have "flooded" it with water from the stream with a trash pump to help settle everything down. I will get more fill in to bring it up a few more inches soon.

Should I keep you all updated "er juss shutterup" and build it?!

The first pic is after some leveling...ground still damp helped a lot.
Second pic is "another barn praject" we did last year.

 

[bjcsc]

Should I keep you all updated "er juss shutterup" and build it?!

Keep it coming...

 

[QRTRHRS]

Peter,

I think $2500 is an excellant price for what you are going to have done. You could easily approach those kind of numbers for a crane just to set the trusses and then you still would/should have help to safely set them.

When you eventually add stalls, you might tie them into the bottom of the trusses with some headers to increase that floor load. Best to consult the truss supplier with questions on that.

Keep the pictures coming!

 

[jdmar]

An update for those following. I have spread and compacted about 80-90 tons of fill. I used the tractor with nothing on the back...OK so it was a little tippy. But the bucket was never more than about a foot off the ground. It spread really easily...the concrete guy recommended a type of material to me. It was easy to spread and compact. Driving over it barely disturbs the surface now. It should be great for a concrete base. And it does let water through easily. Even my 8yo son used the compactor...he is a worker!

This AM the trusses were delivered. The guy was concerned about pulling in to the spot until he found I had the dozer parked at the site. And, yes...he was spinning his wheels pulling up the small hill and needed a little pull. As I walked to the dozer with the keys I said to him " I hope it starts. I haven't tried to turn it over in three years." I think I heard his jaw hit the ground...he thought he was stuck and would have to call a tow. I had to have a little fun with him. He then laughed and took it as the joke it was intended...nice guy.

Below are pics of the trusses on the ground and the inside of the barn with the fill in and compacted. Hopefully we start building in a day or two. I work nights so being up and doing this during the days is wearing me out!

 

[jdmar]

OK, a lot has been happening.
The crew came out and set the walls on day 1 and the trusses on day two...done...well worth the money. I cold never have set those trusses and a crane would have cost me more than this guy's crew doing the whole thing. Couple pics of that happening.

I then got the decking up to the truss floor. That was a bear. I put two boards from the ground leaning at a slight angle up between two trusses. I then put the tractor bucket below them. Then the boards went in the bucket leaning on the boards. I lifted the bucket up as high as it would go...about 8'. Then I had to climb on the trusses and pull those sheets up...Nearly killed my back. After the first one was up and nailed down they got easier...but heck I am a small guy!

I then marked and dug my holes for the posts for the shed extension for animals. I dug my holes with the backhoe to about 42" and then mixed two 80# sacks of concrete per hole for about a 20"x24" pad. I didn't use the PHD since I only have a 12" auger and I wanted a good pad and to be able to adjust the posts so they line up well. I know I am not that good with a PHD.

I set one post today . Those 6x6x16' posts are HEAVY! I have to give 100% credit to one of the recent pole barn posts here on TBN. The guy showed how he put a board in a hole then used the tractor bucket to lift the other end of the post until it dropped in the hole. I forget who it was but tell him THANKS for me if you guys remember. It worked like a charm. Once the post was in the hole it was not too bad to move around and get plumbed. I then filled the hole with gravel (1.5" to fines--compacts really well). I compacted it with a board in 2"-3" lifts.

I also have to give credit to my 8 year old helper...he is a HARD worker. He went around and hammered any proud nails on the decking. I am so proud of him. He climbed up a 13' ladder to the deck. I know I was more scared than he was!

Well that is my recent progress. We also did a little grading and putting foam board against the foundation. It is fun have my children out there when it is safe enough...but I am always scared for them.

Any suggestions please let me know....my "plan" is a loose idea in my head and can change!