Basement Wiring?

   / Basement Wiring? #41  
That is what I had to do in my garage.

Yup, and the stupidest rule that the NEC ever did was to require a garage freezer to be gfci'd. I cant even remember the number of complaints i've heard about the gfci tripping and all the food lost..... The clients hate it, but all i can do is tell them how they can rewire it to be non gfci'd... but that i cant legally do it myself.
 
   / Basement Wiring? #42  
Why not combine the bathroom outlet with the outside outlet. Both require a GFCI. Also it seems unlikely that you would be putting a large load on the outside outlet and bathroom outlet at the same time. You could use this same circuit on some other outlets in the building. Also if this is a garage building you may need GFCI on all the outlets.

I think bathroom gfi has to be dedicated ? gr would know for sure.

Yup, and the stupidest rule that the NEC ever did was to require a garage freezer to be gfci'd. I cant even remember the number of complaints i've heard about the gfci tripping and all the food lost..... The clients hate it, but all i can do is tell them how they can rewire it to be non gfci'd... but that i cant legally do it myself.

Isn't there some wiggle room where if you use a single convenience outlet it doesn't have to be gfi? Lots of problems with sump pumps and nuisance trips, I've heard both sides regarding sump pumps and gfis.

If you used his watts calculation wouldn't it be over 40 amps? but I think his calculations are flawed.

JB.
 
   / Basement Wiring? #43  
I think bathroom gfi has to be dedicated ? gr would know for sure.



Isn't there some wiggle room where if you use a single convenience outlet it doesn't have to be gfi? Lots of problems with sump pumps and nuisance trips, I've heard both sides regarding sump pumps and gfis.

If you used his watts calculation wouldn't it be over 40 amps? but I think his calculations are flawed.

JB.

A bathroom in a HOUSE has to have a circuit that is only used to supply power to the bathroom (or bathrooms). Cant power any other outlets in the house. I dont believe that an outbuilding bathroom would have the same issues, but im not sure. I have never even looked up that code, as here in N Idaho no-one generally adds a bathroom to a standard outbuilding as they would have to heat it all winter to protect the plumbing. I see some summer use sinks/toilets is all.

As for the single dedicated outlet not requiring a GFCI...nope. That rule was tossed out in 2008. The dedicated single receptacle cannot be used unless it is gfci protected. Under current laws, ALL 120 outlets in garage/outbuildings HAVE to be GFCI protected.

A 40 amp circuit is technically able to supply 9,600 watts; however we generally only allow 80% of that as a calculated continuous load.... 9600 * 80% = 7,680 usefull load (continuous). That being said, you dont simply add all the circuits that MAY be used to determine the actual load, as the NEC allows for derates to be used. For instance no one will generally have ALL the lights, all the compressors, all the hand tools used at the same time.

Doing meaningful load calculations is very tricky, and kinda frustrating. In the last code update and load calculations seminar that i attended 2 years ago, of the 40-50 people in the class, it seamed that EVERYONE had different answers for the load calc questions.

In the OP's shop. my biggest concern is if he intends to add electric heat. Heaters are a HUGE draw on a panels load. Air conditioning not so much.
 
   / Basement Wiring?
  • Thread Starter
#44  
You will need a main breaker in the sub-panel. You will need to make sure you bring over a ground, a neutral and 2 hots for a 40 amp - 240 volt circuit. Depending on distance run from panel to panel, a 8/3 copper UF (underground feed) romex run will power up to 45 amps, the 6/3 UF romex can power up to 60 amps comfortably.

I thought the main breaker for the sub panel would be in the main breaker box?

The sub panel will be about 45' from the main breaker box.
 
   / Basement Wiring? #45  
I thought the main breaker for the sub panel would be in the main breaker box?

The sub panel will be about 45' from the main breaker box.

The only time you can use a subpanel and not need one with a main breaker is if it is in the SAME building as the main panel OR has 6 or less breakers installed in the panel no matter where its located.

Otherwise the subpanel HAS to have a main breaker installed.

It is legal to find a 100 amp subpanel with installed 100 amp breakers and install it in a shop, feed it with #6 wires and land it on a 60 amp breaker in the main panel. I had this situation occur a few years back, and my inspector said that as long as the wires are rated 60 amps and the MAIN breaker is 60 amps, the 100 amp breaker in the subpanel is acting as a switch to kill all power, and therefore was legal. Seemed odd, but i have used it again several times. The reason is because a panel with installed 100 amp breaker was CHEAPER than a smaller panel without the breaker.
 
   / Basement Wiring? #46  
As for the single dedicated outlet not requiring a GFCI...nope. That rule was tossed out in 2008. The dedicated single receptacle cannot be used unless it is gfci protected. Under current laws, ALL 120 outlets in garage/outbuildings HAVE to be GFCI protected.

Huh. I thought(assumed) that exception was still around. It was there for this very reason. How dumb they can be sometimes...
 
   / Basement Wiring?
  • Thread Starter
#47  
A bathroom in a HOUSE has to have a circuit that is only used to supply power to the bathroom (or bathrooms). Cant power any other outlets in the house. I dont believe that an outbuilding bathroom would have the same issues, but im not sure. I have never even looked up that code, as here in N Idaho no-one generally adds a bathroom to a standard outbuilding as they would have to heat it all winter to protect the plumbing. I see some summer use sinks/toilets is all.

As for the single dedicated outlet not requiring a GFCI...nope. That rule was tossed out in 2008. The dedicated single receptacle cannot be used unless it is gfci protected. Under current laws, ALL 120 outlets in garage/outbuildings HAVE to be GFCI protected.

A 40 amp circuit is technically able to supply 9,600 watts; however we generally only allow 80% of that as a calculated continuous load.... 9600 * 80% = 7,680 usefull load (continuous). That being said, you dont simply add all the circuits that MAY be used to determine the actual load, as the NEC allows for derates to be used. For instance no one will generally have ALL the lights, all the compressors, all the hand tools used at the same time.

Doing meaningful load calculations is very tricky, and kinda frustrating. In the last code update and load calculations seminar that i attended 2 years ago, of the 40-50 people in the class, it seamed that EVERYONE had different answers for the load calc questions.

In the OP's shop. my biggest concern is if he intends to add electric heat. Heaters are a HUGE draw on a panels load. Air conditioning not so much.

The window AC unit has a heat function built into it and is counted in the calculation that comes to 7326 watts.
 
   / Basement Wiring?
  • Thread Starter
#48  
I installed my basement sub panel yesterday and I have a couple of questions.

My main circuit breaker box upstairs has the ground and neutral connected to the same buss bar (home built in 1989 & we got it in 2009). I don't think that is correct, but rewiring it is not something I want to do now.

1: When I installed the sub panel I connected the neutral to the correct neutral buss bar in the main box and in the sub panel is it ok to do that since the rest of the main box is not wired that way?

2: In the main box should I move all the neutral wires to the neutral buss or should I just leave is since it has worked fine for +20 years?
 
   / Basement Wiring? #49  
I installed my basement sub panel yesterday and I have a couple of questions.
My main circuit breaker box upstairs has the ground and neutral connected to the same buss bar (home built in 1989 & we got it in 2009). I don't think that is correct, but rewiring it is not something I want to do now.
1: When I installed the sub panel I connected the neutral to the correct neutral buss bar in the main box and in the sub panel is it ok to do that since the rest of the main box is not wired that way?
In the main box (and ONLY in the main box) the neutral and ground should be bonded, so you are right to have them separate in your subpanel

2: In the main box should I move all the neutral wires to the neutral buss or should I just leave is since it has worked fine for +20 years?
It is fine in the main box (and ONLY in the main box).

Aaron Z
 
   / Basement Wiring?
  • Thread Starter
#50  
In the main box (and ONLY in the main box) the neutral and ground should be bonded, so you are right to have them separate in your subpanel


It is fine in the main box (and ONLY in the main box).

Aaron Z


Thanks Aaron :)
 

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