Bath Room Electrical?

[JB4310]

correct, #12 for outlets #14(minimum) for lights. the only time lights should be gfci controlled is if a ceiling light is directly above a shower or tub, with less than 8 foot of clearance between the ceiling and bath water. this only applies to surface mounted lighting above a tub. A recessed light will have moisture proof lens that allow it use above a tub or shower.

a bathroom outlet isnt even supposed to connect to a light fixture. it can go to another bath outlet only. I usually wire bathroom lighting to hall lighting circuits.

electrical contractor over 30 years

My bath gfis are all dedicated 20 amp circuits (1 circuit for each bath) bath lighting was off hall or bedroom.

I just put in one of the heater,fan,light combos in ceiling. Ran a new 20 amp cicuit. some question about the wiring between the switchs and fixture, but that not my concern. You mention the 8 feet distance, mine is not directly above the tub/shower but just outside of it, within 8 ft though. It is recessed like you mentioned, but I was thinking there could be a hazard if someone tried to change a bulb standing bare foot on the cast iron tub??? Should I gfi protect that circuit?

JB.

 

[grsthegreat]

My bath gfis are all dedicated 20 amp circuits (1 circuit for each bath) bath lighting was off hall or bedroom.

I just put in one of the heater,fan,light combos in ceiling. Ran a new 20 amp cicuit. some question about the wiring between the switchs and fixture, but that not my concern. You mention the 8 feet distance, mine is not directly above the tub/shower but just outside of it, within 8 ft though. It is recessed like you mentioned, but I was thinking there could be a hazard if someone tried to change a bulb standing bare foot on the cast iron tub??? Should I gfi protect that circuit?

JB.

if its not directly above water or inside the shower stall, then it does not need to be gfci protected. If its just outside of it, i never gfci them.

if you wanted to do it though, for your own piece of mind. the easiest way would be to find the breaker that shuts off that light, and install a GFCI breaker. it protects that light plus the entire circuit.

the new 2011 NEC codes are really changing thing in wiring houses. Now every 110 circuit HAS to be ark faulted. this can add $1000.00 cost to my average house. what a useless rule. Bound to cause lots of headaches for homeowners.

 

[JB4310]

if its not directly above water or inside the shower stall, then it does not need to be gfci protected. If its just outside of it, i never gfci them.

if you wanted to do it though, for your own piece of mind. the easiest way would be to find the breaker that shuts off that light, and install a GFCI breaker. it protects that light plus the entire circuit.

the new 2011 NEC codes are really changing thing in wiring houses. Now every 110 circuit HAS to be ark faulted. this can add $1000.00 cost to my average house. what a useless rule. Bound to cause lots of headaches for homeowners.

Thanks, when I remodeled my house back in 2002, the electrician was just talking about AF for bedrooms? how is it done with AF breakers on every circuit?
Do you flip the grounded outlets upside down now also? I see that more and more now.

Also electrical related I heard there is a super 3 wire now where on a 12/3 the white is 10GA for shared neutral. probably a good idea and might be code some day? I took a residential wiring course long ago so I know just enough to be dangerous

JB

 

[KennyG]

Also electrical related I heard there is a super 3 wire now where on a 12/3 the white is 10GA for shared neutral. probably a good idea and might be code some day? I took a residential wiring course long ago so I know just enough to be dangerous

JB

Why would you need a larger neutral? When I recently used 12/3 to run two parallel 20 amp outlet circuits, I went through this with my electrician brother and dredged up some memories from my electrical engineering courses and can't see how the current on a shared neutral can be any larger than the largest current on the individual hot lines. (The exception would be if you took both hot lines from the same side of the entrance cable, but that would be a code violation. For a shared circuit, you should have ganged breakers (no independent actuation) so that would have to pick up both sides of the entrance.)

Since the two line wires are out of phase, as they match in load, the neutral current goes to zero. (Just like a 220 service.)

 

[grsthegreat]

Thanks, when I remodeled my house back in 2002, the electrician was just talking about AF for bedrooms? how is it done with AF breakers on every circuit?
Do you flip the grounded outlets upside down now also? I see that more and more now.

Also electrical related I heard there is a super 3 wire now where on a 12/3 the white is 10GA for shared neutral. probably a good idea and might be code some day? I took a residential wiring course long ago so I know just enough to be dangerous

JB

have not heard about the larger #10 on the 12/3 . who knows. but you dont need to up-size the neutral on shared (Edison) circuits. Personally, i NEVER share 2 circuits on a neutral for one reason. if you drop the neutral anywheres, you get 220 everywhere on that circuit. Ive seen it happen, and its scary. good way to wreck havoc on someones appliances, etc and get a lawsuit.

its east to add ark-faults to any circuit, but there next to useless. alot of complaints about static shock from carpet, touch switch...zap. a harmless zap from static, but enough to sometimes trip the ark fault breaker. then they bit*h to me like its my fault.

also, i only turn outlets upside down if the outlet is switched, like in a bedroom, so the owners know which outlet is switched.

in commercial/hospitals we reverse all outlets with grounds pointing up...for one reason. these have metal coverplates, and if the coverplate falls loose, it will drop and we don't want it to cross the hot and neutral prongs of the plug.

 

[JB4310]

Why would you need a larger neutral? When I recently used 12/3 to run two parallel 20 amp outlet circuits, I went through this with my electrician brother and dredged up some memories from my electrical engineering courses and can't see how the current on a shared neutral can be any larger than the largest current on the individual hot lines. (The exception would be if you took both hot lines from the same side of the entrance cable, but that would be a code violation. For a shared circuit, you should have ganged breakers (no independent actuation) so that would have to pick up both sides of the entrance.)

Since the two line wires are out of phase, as they match in load, the neutral current goes to zero. (Just like a 220 service.)

I have several shared neutral cables into my panel none of them on ganged (220V?) breakers, electrician just left some of the jacket on them to identify, they are all on opposite phases now but I see how things could get mixed up if someone were to move breakers.

have not heard about the larger #10 on the 12/3 . who knows. but you dont need to up-size the neutral on shared (Edison) circuits. Personally, i NEVER share 2 circuits on a neutral for one reason. if you drop the neutral anywheres, you get 220 everywhere on that circuit. Ive seen it happen, and its scary. good way to wreck havoc on someones appliances, etc and get a lawsuit.

I never thought about putting 220 thru those shared neutral circuits, now you got me worried, better torque that neutral bar. It must not be against code? as I had a lic electrician due the work and it was inspected at the time in 2002.

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As far as the 3 wire cable with larger neutral, I heard that from an electrician on a job just recently. He had some scenario where it sounded like it was practical to up one size on the neutral. But I just searched all over google for anything to support that claim and couldn't find any mention of it. Even if it was just a rumor, you would think it would be found on Google.



Sorry for hijack OP

JB.

 

[grsthegreat]

all i know for sure, is you dint need to upsize a neutral for a shared circuit.

on 3 phase circuits we do share one neutral with 3 hot legs. every hot leg HAS to be on a separate phase. its done all the time, and generally causes no problems. but the commercial panels are way superior to household panels. I'm Leary of doing it on residential panels

also, on the shared circuits your using, you say that the hot legs are on the same phase. according to the NEC thats not allowed. its probably safer, but not supposed to be done. at least if you drop a neutral, there wouldn't be 220 volts. by using the same phase, you might overload the neutral. but if its worked this long, why worry. most residential houses are way over circuited.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Since the two line wires are out of phase, as they match in load, the neutral current goes to zero. (Just like a 220 service.)

That makes sense, but let me make sure I understand right. If I run 12/3 for two separate 110 circuits (say to an outbuilding), I won't overload the neutral so long as each of the two hot legs comes off a different side of the panel.

What do you mean by "drop a neutral"?

 

[KennyG]

That makes sense, but let me make sure I understand right. If I run 12/3 for two separate 110 circuits (say to an outbuilding), I won't overload the neutral so long as each of the two hot legs comes off a different side of the panel.

What do you mean by "drop a neutral"?

First question, you are correct. Since the two hot legs are 180 degrees out of phase, if you are drawing 20 amps on each, they balance and the power essentially feeds back and forth through both hot legs. The neutral has zero current. The worst case for the neutral is if you have 20 amps on one circuit and zero on the other, then you get 20 amps back through the neutral. Think about it - if you are running a 220 volt load on the two hots, you can disconnect the neutral and it would still run fine. (Don't try this at home, kids.)

The downside of the common neutral circuit is that if you need GFCI protection, the only way to get it is to use a 2 pole (ganged) GFCI breaker which is very expensive.

I'm not sure what the other poster actually meant by "drop a neutral". If the neutral becomes disconnected, neither of the 110 circuits will work at all. (A 220 load could be powered, but only if you have a socket wired to both hot leads.) If you short one of the hot leads to the neutral, you would theoretically have 220 across the 110 socket, but you would also pop the breaker, so I'm not sure why this is concern. I guess if you disconnect the neutral at one place and short it at another, you'd get 220 on a 110 socket, but that's pretty farfetched.

The only safety concerns I've heard about with this arrangement is that if you have individual breakers you could trip one breaker and still have power on one side of the circuit in the box and also the concern that if you hook both hot legs to the same phase, you can overpower the neutral.

 

[mjncad]

the new 2011 NEC codes are really changing thing in wiring houses. Now every 110 circuit HAS to be ark faulted. this can add $1000.00 cost to my average house. what a useless rule. Bound to cause lots of headaches for homeowners.

Thanks, when I remodeled my house back in 2002, the electrician was just talking about AF for bedrooms? how is it done with AF breakers on every circuit?

Do you flip the grounded outlets upside down now also? I see that more and more now.

JB

I was under the impression that code requires bedrooms and bathrooms to be AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) protected; but I could be wrong as I'm no NEC guru.

Generally upside outlets are to make it easier for the homeowner to identify which outlet is switched.

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of code changes are meant to keep the code writers in business, especially if they change something that has worked fine for ages.