Bath Room Electrical?

/ Bath Room Electrical? #41  
I was told when I pulled my building permit for my remodel last year that I just barely missed the cutoff for needing Arc Fault breakers. The electrician that put in the new panel kept telling me how lucky I am that I didn't have to do that.

What is the arc fault supposed to protect against?

well, supposedly it all began around electric blankets....believe it or not. some older frayed electric blankets can cause this arking ...they invented something to help prevent this...
ya right

someone invented an ark sensing breaker, patented it, then got legislation passed that REQUIRED us to use and buy it. its a win win for them.

Ive had old electric blankets for years, and i never had a problem. I do have problems with them tripping from evil static electricity though HAHA.
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #42  
...ya right

someone invented an ark sensing breaker, patented it, then got legislation passed that REQUIRED us to use and buy it. its a win win for them.

That's likely right. If it were really a problem, they'd have just outlawed electric blankets.
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #43  
I was told when I pulled my building permit for my remodel last year that I just barely missed the cutoff for needing Arc Fault breakers. The electrician that put in the new panel kept telling me how lucky I am that I didn't have to do that.

What is the arc fault supposed to protect against?

When I was wiring my new house back in the late 90s, my county's
chief electrical inspector brought up the future arc fault protection that
was coming in the new NEC. He and I both questioned its value.

Now that the requirement has been put into force, I think that new
house owners are going to have to replace a lot of wall switches. Many
now use fluorescent lighting everywhere, which seems to cause more
arcing in the switches. I use a lot of CFLs and full-sized fluorescent
lights, and I notice it.
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #44  
Interesting. I hadn't heard that the 2011 NEC was going AFCI-crazy. Of course, many places don't adopt the code immediately. Not sure what we are on but it may be 2005 or 2002 even.

They should add this in with all the other nanny-state regs and require Back-up cameras on our sprinkler protected AFCI circuits. :p
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #45  
Interesting. I hadn't heard that the 2011 NEC was going AFCI-crazy. Of course, many places don't adopt the code immediately. Not sure what we are on but it may be 2005 or 2002 even.

They should add this in with all the other nanny-state regs and require Back-up cameras on our sprinkler protected AFCI circuits. :p

hay..dont give them any ideas :laughing:

idaho always adopts NEC 100%.... the rats
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #46  
hay..dont give them any ideas :laughing:

idaho always adopts NEC 100%.... the rats

Yeah! Don't give them any ideas!

OK; but so any of the local municipalities and/or counties tweak the code for local conditions to generate more revenue from re-inspections fees?
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #47  
Read this link and it might help some of you understand better what AFCI's are all about.. :thumbsup:

AFCISafety.org

And remember when they first came out we were in phase 1,, they have developed to 3.1 now and are getting better,, I pity the people with the 1.1 version,,
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #48  
It is interesting all the comments this post has generated. I'd like to put my two cents in. Please realize that electrical codes are administered by individual states, and sometimes also by municipalities. Where I am, the 2008 NEC is in force, with a few modifications, so what I will write below will be based on that code. Even though the 2011 NEC has been published, it will not be adopted here until late summer or early fall, so it is irrelevant until then.

The short answer to the OP is, no, bathroom lights do not have to be GFI protected anywhere in the bathroom. There are exceptions: Bath fans, with or without lights, must be GFI protected over tubs and in showers. And if the installation instructions for the light fixture call for GFI protection, then it must be protected. Below are the awful details of bathroom wiring, somewhat, and mercifully, condensed.

In bathrooms, all 15- and 20-amp, 120 volt receptacles must be GFI protected. There should be at least one receptacle installed within 3' of the edge of each sink, not more than 12" below the countertop. If your bathroom has two sinks, one receptacle installed between the sinks may satisfy the requirement.

At least one bathroom receptacle must be on a 20-amp circuit. (Here's where it gets tricky) That circuit may also supply receptacles in other bathrooms OR it may supply lights and fans in the same bathroom, but not both. That circuit may never supply anything outside of a bathroom.

Receptacles are prohibited in showers and in or over bathtubs. (Duh! I remember when this line was added to the NEC a number of years ago. I thought it was just common sense.)

Within 8' vertically, and 3' horizontally, from the rim of a bathtub, or threshold of a shower, certain types of lights are prohibited, including track lights, hanging pendants and paddle fans. ("They" just don't want something hanging or dangling that might become a grab bar in case someone is slipping stepping out of the tub.) Within that same zone, lights must be labelled for "damp location", and if subject to shower spray, "wet location." There is no requirement in the 2008 NEC to GFI a light fixture over a tub or shower.

Bathroom fans are typically marked that they must be GFI protected if installed over a tub or shower. The NEC requires us to follow installation requirements, so if a fan or light's installation instructions tell you to GFI protect it over a tub or shower, you must do that.

Apologies for the boring treatise on bathroom wiring. I tried to condense it without losing the important bits. If you disagree with anything I've written, I'd be happy to discuss it further.

One last thing, touched on by other posters, and an area of contention among electricians -- arc-fault protection is not required in bathrooms. Nor is it required in kitchens, garages, unfinished basements or outside -- basically all the areas that require GFI protection are not required to have Arc-fault protection. At least that's what the 2008 NEC says. The requirements in your area may be different, and you'll have to check locally to find out what code is being followed.

Now my brain hurts, so I'll stop writing! I hope I haven't muddied the waters. Cheers, Mike
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #49  
Ive been an electrician for 30 years or so.......i think its time i become a plumber.

***** always flows downhill (does it flow uphill in Australia???)

i really do get tires of these every 3 year changes. Why does the government always try to regulate everything into the ridiculous. Its amazing how many 60 year old houses i see that are working just dandy with their old aluminum wires and 6 screw in fuses.

we really do over complicate stuff. Now i get to add 20 - 40 additional ( i wire some very large houses) $40.00 breakers to my estimates. And people have been canceling the jobs just due to the increases in wire costs. wait till they see this $800 add on.
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #50  
Its amazing how many 60 year old houses i see that are working just dandy with their old aluminum wires and 6 screw in fuses.

That's being generous. When I moved into my 60 year old house I had four circuits with 30 amp screw in breakers each. I now have 35 circuits spread accross a panel and two subpanels. It worked fine before, but now the lights don't dim when I start the blender.
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #51  
That's being generous. When I moved into my 60 year old house I had four circuits with 30 amp screw in breakers each. I now have 35 circuits spread accross a panel and two subpanels. It worked fine before, but now the lights don't dim when I start the blender.

hehe....ya well, guess blenders wernt around 60 years ago :laughing: :laughing: :licking:
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #52  
Mike described it nicely. I knew there were some new wrinkles about what else could be on that 20A bath circuit, but it looks like he described it well. Like so many things with the code it is just minimum. For the expense, especially if you are doing the work yourself, it only makes sense to put the outlets in one bath on a dedicated 20A circuit. Hair dryers and curling irons will never trip a breaker again... Put the lights on a separate circuit, such as the lighting circuit from an adjacent BR or hallway. Lights and fans draw so little that you can stack a lot of them on one 15A circuit. Then if by some act of randomness you do trip the outlets, the lights stay on. Outlets are usually where the overload trips occur, not fixed lighting. ...Though we did have a pendant fixture in our house rub through the insulation and short to ground, tripping the breaker a few years back. It was a real cheap fixture (and no, I hadn't done the original wiring on it... :)

...That's my philosophy on circuit layout, FWIW...
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #53  
That's being generous. When I moved into my 60 year old house I had four circuits with 30 amp screw in breakers each. I now have 35 circuits spread accross a panel and two subpanels. It worked fine before, but now the lights don't dim when I start the blender.


I don't know if I'd call that "working fine before" :)

You had 30amp fuses on what was most likely 15amp wired circuits, because they must of been blowing the 15amp fuses constantly from being overloaded :eek:

I know what you mean though, I upgraded to 200A service, I only have 3 slots left free out of 40. The kitchen alone has 8 circuits.

JB
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #54  
I don't know if I'd call that "working fine before" :)

You had 30amp fuses on what was most likely 15amp wired circuits, because they must of been blowing the 15amp fuses constantly from being overloaded :eek:

I know what you mean though, I upgraded to 200A service, I only have 3 slots left free out of 40. The kitchen alone has 8 circuits.

JB

um... When we built the house, the electrician told us to put in TWO 200 amp panels!!!

So we have 320 amp service.. that is what the Duke engineer told us.
But it is set with two 200 amp breakers.. Basically they said that the service would not give me a full 400 amps as there is not a residental meter base that can handle that much... or at least that is how I remember it....


EVERYTHING is electric..
one panel is full and the other has about 15 circuits..

BUT-- I should state that the house is wired so that from the power input, it branches to a generator panel for 1 leg (200 amp) then to the house breaker panel. then the other leg from the power company goes straight to a house panel.
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #55  
um... When we built the house, the electrician told us to put in TWO 200 amp panels!!!

So we have 320 amp service.. that is what the Duke engineer told us.
But it is set with two 200 amp breakers.. Basically they said that the service would not give me a full 400 amps as there is not a residental meter base that can handle that much... or at least that is how I remember it....


EVERYTHING is electric..
one panel is full and the other has about 15 circuits..

BUT-- I should state that the house is wired so that from the power input, it branches to a generator panel for 1 leg (200 amp) then to the house breaker panel. then the other leg from the power company goes straight to a house panel.

technically, all residential 400 amp panels are actually 320 amps (according to the labels), but they can handle two (2) 200 amp breakers.
odd, aint iot
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #56  
technically, all residential 400 amp panels are actually 320 amps (according to the labels), but they can handle two (2) 200 amp breakers.
odd, aint iot

I'd bet there aren't to many family's that could pull enough current to ruin a 320A service, unless it was a grow operation. :D
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #57  
LarryD said:
I'd bet there aren't to many family's that could pull enough current to ruin a 320A service, unless it was a grow operation. :D

Yea... About 40% of ours is just code requirements..
We had to put outlets in places I never imagined.
And most of those had to be dedicated circuits!

There are 6 circuits in the attic alone!
3 are for lights since it is not one big area.
And 2 are outlets th then a doorbell circuit.
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #58  
I'd bet there aren't to many family's that could pull enough current to ruin a 320A service, unless it was a grow operation. :D

Give it time with all the added electrical gizmos of modern life and a 320 panel may seem small in the future.
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #59  
I'm in alot of homes and have maybe seen 1 or 2 services larger than 200 Amp, see more 60's. Most people are upgrading from 100 to 200.

If you had an electric heated mcmansion, with hot tubes, pool heaters etc. I could definitely see the need for more than 200 though.

JB.
 
/ Bath Room Electrical? #60  
I'm in alot of homes and have maybe seen 1 or 2 services larger than 200 Amp, see more 60's. Most people are upgrading from 100 to 200.

If you had an electric heated mcmansion, with hot tubes, pool heaters etc. I could definitely see the need for more than 200 though.

JB.

its the McMansions that i wire mostly...them rich *&&^%......i wish i was one :laughing:

I put in mainly 400 amp systems, with the occasional 600 and 800 to keep things interesting. You know, everyone needs a 200 amp panel to power their waterfeatures.
 

Marketplace Items

2011 Ford F-550 4x4 Terex Hi-Ranger LT38 38ft Insulated Bucket Truck (A61568)
2011 Ford F-550...
2017 Ford F-150 Ext. Cab Pickup Truck (A60352)
2017 Ford F-150...
Cummins 6-Cylinder Diesel Engine with Transmission (A59230)
Cummins 6-Cylinder...
(INOP) 2019 KUBOTA SVL 95-2S SKID STEER (A52707)
(INOP) 2019 KUBOTA...
2025 Ligchine Spiderscreed Concrete Screed (A59228)
2025 Ligchine...
2025 Pabreak Hydraulic Vibratory Plate Compactor Skid Steer Attachment (A61567)
2025 Pabreak...
 
Top