Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[Gale Hawkins]

Climate change policies are going to be costly, says U.N.-backed report

I am starting to see the EV is caught in the cross fire of opinions about the future.

In our case I was going for an upgraded vehicle as far as features goes and that produced less heat after this last summer.

While the 2016 Nissan Leaf is the nicest car we have ever owned and the newest one since the 1973 Nissan that cost $2150 new. The heat pump really does add comfort on cold mornings. Doing the gas station thing was not that bad time wise but it is cheaper to just plug it at night. What I really late is the oil changing places so skipping them is an EV plus for me. The biggy is I Do Not want to go back to driving ICE vehicles after just 8 weeks with the Leaf. 9 weeks ago I would have never through that would happen. The 4 camera vision really helps in parking lots.

I am not convinced we will save any whales or polar bears but they never was on my mind. As some of the comments to the above article points out we are going to kill some industries and build other industries. In our case we just need to be able to make two 30 mile trips a day for the next four years based on current plans and the Leaf seems to be a good fit for us.

For business road trips we have rented for years instead of driving personal ICE vehicles even though that we own 3 currently so that is an option we can do personally should we not own an ICE powered vehicle some day but I do not see that some day coming for many years if every unless fuel becomes the high price in some countries today.

Regardless how ones makes a vehicle move down the road there is going to be an energy cost period.

I am impressed by companies like Nissan and Tesla that have been working against great odds and gaining ground for the EV idea that is over 100 years old. I was watching a Youtube video about the Nissan Leafs in Australia and he was mentioned how far they have to drive and the lack of charging points in open country.

I read where there are 600,000 EV's in CA currently and wonder why we only have 6 in the state of KY.

A serious concern that I have is covered in the story below.

Electric cars are clean, but can they be profitable? New report casts doubt

After reading about the recent GM strike I can see the USA losing its auto manufacturing down the road. If by 2050 50% of all new car and trucks are EV's I can see 90% of them coming from China.

Payne: UAW-GM fight exposes fears of an EV future

 

[Jstpssng]

If by 2050 50% of all new car and trucks are EV's I can see 90% of them coming from China.

We refuse to look forward, so therefore are falling behind. Over the last several decades we have shipped much of our manufacturing base to China, and owe about 5% of our debt to that country.

 

[Grumpycat]

I read where there are 600,000 EV's in CA currently and wonder why we only have 6 in the state of KY.

News media is pathetically inaccurate.

This month in 2013 the wording was not clear as to whether there were 5 Teslas already or mine was the 5th in Madison county, AL.

I have seen 7 at once at Supercharger in Louisville, KY.

 

[aczlan]

I am impressed by companies like Nissan and Tesla that have been working against great odds and gaining ground for the EV idea that is over 100 years old. I was watching a Youtube video about the Nissan Leafs in Australia and he was mentioned how far they have to drive and the lack of charging points in open country.

The Australian Outback is not a place I would recommend somebody drive on EV unless they have their own IC powered generator onboard to recharge their vehicle. When you can go hundreds of miles without seeing a house let alone a gas station or a charging station it seems almost suicidal to drive an EV out there.

I read where there are 600,000 EV's in CA currently and wonder why we only have 6 in the state of KY.

When you think of how bad traffic is in many parts of California, the fact that in many areas of California you can use an HOV lane with one person in an EV, the subsidies (state and federal) for buying an EV, etc it's not really a huge surprise that people buy them.

Aaron 5

 

[California]

When you think of how bad traffic is in many parts of California, the fact that in many areas of California you can use an HOV lane with one person in an EV, the subsidies (state and federal) for buying an EV, etc it's not really a huge surprise that people buy them.

Anything that encourages carpooling, hybrids, EV's, whatever, helps a little. My dentist commutes in a Volt down from the foothills. I suspect the Volt is mostly for the diamond lane (carpool) advantage. He says he makes it down the hill and part way home before the engine kicks in. He says he doesn't need a charger outlet at his office. (although it would be very easy to do).

Here's a picture of summer smog in the Central Valley, the state capitol building is center-left. His commuting down this grade and 30 miles back up every day has got to contribute a little to the smog. Explanation of the photo. Smog like this, and worse in Los Angeles, is what started the demand that commuters carpool instead of each driving alone.

 

[aczlan]

Anything that encourages carpooling, hybrids, EV's, whatever, helps a little. My dentist commutes in a Volt down from the foothills. I suspect the Volt is mostly for the diamond lane (carpool) advantage. He says he makes it down the hill and part way home before the engine kicks in. He says he doesn't need a charger outlet at his office. (although it would be very easy to do).

Here's a picture of summer smog in the Central Valley, the state capitol building is center-left. His commuting down this grade and 30 miles back up every day has got to contribute a little to the smog. Explanation of the photo. Smog like this, and worse in Los Angeles, is what started the demand that commuters carpool instead of each driving alone.

I agree and it makes sense for such a poor located major metropolitan area (poorly located in that the prevailing winds push the exhaust and other pollutants into the 3 sided "bowl" of mountains and they sit there) to focus on reducing pollution at almost any cost.
My issue is that it is nowhere near as important in most other cities (ie: where the other 98% of the US population lives) where the winds clear things out, or the population density is low enough that motor emissions aren't a significant factor yet they are stuck with the same (expensive) fixes on their vehicles (ie: Tier 4 and the whole CARB scandal that went along with that where they overstated how much diesel emissions there were in the state by 340%: BREAKING: SFO Chronicle says "Faulty science behind state's landmark diesel law" – an error of 34% | Watts Up With That? ).

Aaron Z

 

[Jstpssng]

I agree and it makes sense for such a poor located major metropolitan area (poorly located in that the prevailing winds push the exhaust and other pollutants into the 3 sided "bowl" of mountains and they sit there) to focus on reducing pollution at almost any cost.
My issue is that it is nowhere near as important in most other cities (ie: where the other 98% of the US population lives) where the winds clear things out, or the population density is low enough that motor emissions aren't a significant factor yet they are stuck with the same (expensive) fixes on their vehicles (ie: Tier 4 and the whole CARB scandal that went along with that where they overstated how much diesel emissions there were in the state by 340%: BREAKING: SFO Chronicle says "Faulty science behind state's landmark diesel law" – an error of 34% | Watts Up With That? )

Aaron Z

The problem with that logic is that while the wind will push "things" out, it doesn't just disperse. Factory towns and coal burning electric plants dealt with their air pollution by putting in taller stacks... this put it higher in the air but what goes up still must come down. Prevailing winds push everything from west to east, so we get the sum of everything you guys dump into the air. I've noticed a great reduction in air quality- i.e., reduced visibility and haze, especially in the summer months. Some of this comes from our friends to the north in the form of smoke from forest fires; while the rest comes from points west.

 

[Oaktree]

While the 2016 Nissan Leaf is the nicest car we have ever owned and the newest one since the 1973 Nissan that cost $2150 new. The heat pump really does add comfort on cold mornings.

Other than a Suburu (not a brand that's ever rung my bell) you mentioned earlier, I don't know what you're comparing it to. I do know that any reviews I've read have been very tepid with their praise, and I saw an article recently that mentioned that the leaf was third from the bottom as far as resale value after 5 years went. That's gotta say something.
I thought you only have had this car for a couple months...you haven't even seen a cold morning yet. See how well that heat pump works in Minnesota in February!

Regardless how ones makes a vehicle move down the road there is going to be an energy cost period.

Very true. Should these vehicles ever become somewhat mainstream look for all the subsidies, "free" recharges, etc. to go the way of full serve gasoline.

I read where there are 600,000 EV's in CA currently and wonder why we only have 6 in the state of KY.

I'll go out on a limb and say the difference isn't quite as drastic as that...inaccurate statistics and/or artificially inflating Calif's numbers probably throw in quite a margin of error.
That having been said, California and Kentucky are probably as polar opposite culturally as you can get in this country. Calif is home to a disproportionate amount of idealists with deep enough pockets to afford the latest fad, Kentuckians are a lot more conservative and pragmatic and a lot less likely to want (or be able to afford) the latest greatest gadget.

After reading about the recent GM strike I can see the USA losing its auto manufacturing down the road.

The article you linked to confirms a point many of us have made...these are niche, almost novelty vehicles and in the rush of everyone trying to get on the bandwagon supply is going to exceed demand. I still maintain that the Great Unwashed don't really care what kind of engine powers their vehicle as long as it gets them where they want to go and back with minimum hassle. I'm not convinced that the "mobility revolution" it refers to is even a thing.
As far as auto manufacturing moving to China (or wherever), well I've said it before but the UAW has to be one of the most clueless organizations in the country outside of congress, with the automakers themselves a close second. It's almost like they're actively trying to price themselves out of a job.

If by 2050 50% of all new car and trucks are EV's I can see 90% of them coming from China.

We refuse to look forward, so therefore are falling behind. Over the last several decades we have shipped much of our manufacturing base to China, and owe about 5% of our debt to that country.

This is nothing new. Manufacturing is very cost-sensitive, and companies have been moving operations to low(er) cost areas for decades...look at the textile, shoe, and forest-products industries in New England alone. We're talking the 1930s for textiles, late 60s-early 70s on shoes.

How do you counter that? Make everyone take a 50% pay cut? You go first....

 

[Jstpssng]

^^^
When given a choice, some of us bought based on where things were manufactured, not just because it was the cheapest.
It’s the same as taking a pay cut... this item was made in USA, while that knockoff was made in China for less than what you would work for.

There’s a movement to raise the minimum wage; to me this will have the same results as President Trump’s trade wars. I don’t agree with everything he does, especially every time he “tweets” or opens his mouth. Yet I’m this case I do think that he feels he is trying to do what is right for the country.

 

[Grumpycat]

Other than a Suburu (not a brand that's ever rung my bell) you mentioned earlier, I don't know what you're comparing it to. I do know that any reviews I've read have been very tepid with their praise, and I saw an article recently that mentioned that the leaf was third from the bottom as far as resale value after 5 years went. That's gotta say something.
I thought you only have had this car for a couple months...you haven't even seen a cold morning yet. See how well that heat pump works in Minnesota in February!

Nissan floods the market with subsidized leases, often only $100/month for 24 months. Then off-lease LEAFs flood the market. That is how Gayle bought a 2016 for cheap. Nissan floods the market to get clean-vehicle credits which permit sale of conventional vehicles in regressive CARB states. Its either that or buy credits from Tesla. Apparently as heavily as they subsidize the LEAF those credits are precious.

Very true. Should these vehicles ever become somewhat mainstream look for all the subsidies, "free" recharges, etc. to go the way of full serve gasoline.

Nobody is subsidizing "free charging". Some businesses provide relatively slow free charging, typically 7.2kW. Do the math to figure out how much that costs, the hardware is $500.

Electrify America chargers are subsidized by the VW Diesel fines. Yet the EA station at Walmart near Gayle charges $1.00 initially then $0.21/minute for rates under 75 kW. The LEAF can not charge faster than 50 kW. So if Gayle stops for 30 minutes he gets 25 kWh for $6.25 (assuming the rate of charge does not decrease as battery fills, his battery only holds 30 kWh). His LEAF is EPA rated for 30 kWh/100 miles, that is 300 Wh/mile, 25 kWh for $6.25 is $0.075/mile. Or the equivalent of 33 MPG$ vs gasoline at $2.50/gallon. Conclusion: Government subsidized EV charging is still more expensive than gasoline.

My Tesla Model S 85 is rated 380 Wh/mile by the EPA (this is power drawn from the grid). My home electric power costs $0.10/kWh so that works out to the equivalent of 68 MPG$. Plus I get to drive the fastest accelerating car I have ever owned. And quite honestly I do better than the EPA ratings.

Older Teslas such as mine came with a $2000 option for "free" lifetime charging at Tesla Superchargers. For a while Tesla included free Supercharging with all, but that ended a year or two ago. I still receive free Supercharging. However it is not worth driving 20 miles to a Supercharger and sitting around for 30 minutes then 20 miles home. And that is not the problem Supercharging is intended to solve. Supercharging allows me to drive 540 miles/day which I have done about 6 times. It lets me drive 200 miles to Atlanta. Or 120 miles to Birmingham. Or 100 miles to Nashville. And costs only food and tire rubber.