Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[Gale Hawkins]

Wow! 3 mile range and charges in only 2 minutes!

OK, the URL title goofed. Claims 300 miles and 20 minute charge but isn't saying anything about providing a charging infrastructure capable of the 20 minute charge. Tesla has been building 250 kW Superchargers the past year.

Any company who wants to play the specsmanship game can market a rapid charge EV, its just a matter of how much degradation they are willing to accept by abusing the battery. Consider the shortcut Nissan took with the LEAF resulting in batteries that last 3-4 years.

Lithium batteries wear faster the faster they are discharged, the faster they are charged, the lower they are discharged, and the higher they are charged. Batteries are not like gas tanks for which it doesn't matter how low you go before filling, or how full you fill. For minimum wear a lithium battery needs to stay in the middle. For minimum wear a lead-acid battery needs to stay near full charge.

What gets me is all of the EV press releases that show little understanding of EV's in general but some see them as an oversize golf cart it seems.

I get it that Nissan had to figure out how to build an EV battery pack for the Leaf and that their first car to market at the end of 2010 was a prototype. Actually less the battery pack the first Leaf is still a good car. I get it that life of the battery pack had issues and in 2013 they tweaked the battery chemistry but to this day they have not addressed the core issue from day one which was battery temperature management.

In 5 years Tesla had that problem solved by 2008 for the Roadster release and that solution was key to the successful release of Model S in 2012. After Tesla was successful and holding the flashlight for Nissan they could have ran with battery temperature management in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 or even 2020 but they DID NOT for some reason.

The 2016 Nissan Leaf SL that we bought last Oct had been in service for 38 months with 21.5K miles on it and 740 charging cycles on the 30 kWh traction battery. It had lost 35% of its capacity when fully charged. Before I got to the dealership the sales person had the 8 year/100K mile warranty printed out and told me I was in line for a new battery from Nissan very soon since it only had to lose one more State Of Health bar. It was showing 9/12 bars and 8/12 is where the replacement warranty gets triggered. That happen 6 weeks later at 24K miles.

It was not hassle free but I did get the battery replaced and they went with a new 40 kWh battery with a State Of Health reading of 99.87% (12/12 bars on dash meter). They had moved to the 40 kWh battery in late 2017 which was a bit different inside the case but otherwise the fit and external wiring was plug and play.

I got it back 12 Feb 2020 after hauling to a dealership 30 Dec 2019 and the SOH has been dropping at rate of 0.01% daily in winter weather and I expect a faster drop rate this summer. The mileage Guess O Meter yesterday at full charge read 159 miles an without heat or air is more or less accurate. I was getting about 60 miles of range with the dying battery using some heat was two trips to town. Hopefully we can come up with a used Model Y in the next 4-5 years before this larger battery range becomes unusable.

Currently my concern is out running the bat flu then I will see if my IRA has anything left in it. From what I am reading the winter of 20-21 is going to be when this flu really hits hard.

EV adoption rate in the USA I expect will take a hit but seems to be gaining speed especially in China due to air pollution and perhaps Europe to a lesser degree.

 

[bridge4]

seems to be gaining speed especially in China due to air pollution and perhaps Europe to a lesser degree.

China had huge subsidies on electrics and were pumping a ton of money into companies and credits for people. They stopped when things slow down over there, and the sales plunged. I think they were bringing them back, but then the flu hit and who knows...
China to extend EV subsidies - electrive.com
I love electric stuff and own a lot of tools and yard stuff, but until it makes sense financially and some real low price electrics show up in USA, it won't take off here.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

China had huge subsidies on electrics and were pumping a ton of money into companies and credits for people. They stopped when things slow down over there, and the sales plunged. I think they were bringing them back, but then the flu hit and who knows...
China to extend EV subsidies - electrive.com
I love electric stuff and own a lot of tools and yard stuff, but until it makes sense financially and some real low price electrics show up in USA, it won't take off here.

I know a guy that is always trading and puts about 5K miles a year on a car. Someone that just drives locally with a new like car (Rav4) to trade and especially for an EV at a premium just does not make financial sense for someone like me. I wanted an EV to make two 30 mile trips daily and the Nissan Leaf was better in my case than a Tesla but that was Tesla's fault. They would not sell me a 3 year old Tesla with 21.5K miles of any shape or form with a brand new battery for $13,418.00.

Nissan said the replacement battery battery listed for $12,495.00 and the labor was $500.00

EV's will come down in price and become cheaper than the same car but with the ICE in like 5-6 years.

Well I have run to pick up the wife because it is too much fun to let her drive herself. Seriously EV's can be addicting. Yet if one gets into the technology there can be a learning curve to understand it all or they are like an electric golf car with a steering wheel, go pedal and stop pedal. Our has a heat pump for heat and that is SO nice. Yes I want a Tesla Model Y but the bat flu virus eat some of our money. Planning on a used Model Y when the wife retires.

Now that the bat flu has hit causing a glut of rental cars, etc hitting the market there should be some great deals coming up so that will be negative for the EV market for the working person needing new like but low cost transportation.

EV's may never be the "best" value in our life time if just looking at the cost difference between fossil fuel and electric rates. But unless we are in like this crazy bat flu time people do not shop for best value most of the time. Yes there are exceptions. Some still will go to a nice steakhouse and drop $30+ when they could have got the same calories at McDonald's for $8 for example.

EV's often provide an experience that the owners prefer for life.

 

[bridge4]

I know a guy that is always trading and puts about 5K miles a year on a car. Someone that just drives locally with a new like car (Rav4) to trade and especially for an EV at a premium just does not make financial sense for someone like me. I wanted an EV to make two 30 mile trips daily and the Nissan Leaf was better in my case than a Tesla but that was Tesla's fault. They would not sell me a 3 year old Tesla with 21.5K miles of any shape or form with a brand new battery for $13,418.00.

Nissan said the replacement battery battery listed for $12,495.00 and the labor was $500.00

EV's will come down in price and become cheaper than the same car but with the ICE in like 5-6 years.

Well I have run to pick up the wife because it is too much fun to let her drive herself. Seriously EV's can be addicting. Yet if one gets into the technology there can be a learning curve to understand it all or they are like an electric golf car with a steering wheel, go pedal and stop pedal. Our has a heat pump for heat and that is SO nice. Yes I want a Tesla Model Y but the bat flu virus eat some of our money. Planning on a used Model Y when the wife retires.

Now that the bat flu has hit causing a glut of rental cars, etc hitting the market there should be some great deals coming up so that will be negative for the EV market for the working person needing new like but low cost transportation.

EV's may never be the "best" value in our life time if just looking at the cost difference between fossil fuel and electric rates. But unless we are in like this crazy bat flu time people do not shop for best value most of the time. Yes there are exceptions. Some still will go to a nice steakhouse and drop $30+ when they could have got the same calories at McDonald's for $8 for example.

EV's often provide an experience that the owners prefer for life.

You ignored completely that they only do well in countries with large subsidies.

The thing about your McDonalds comparison is that again, the majority are going to mcdonalds not the stake house. The guys at the steak house can already afford the high end EV and bought them if they are interested. That isn't who needs to join the revolution. Until you make it cheap enough for the masses and we DRASTICALLY scale up our electric grid, EV is a pipe dream for 90% of America.

How does a renter charge? How does someone in parking garage charge? Yes there are maybe 2 per location, but what if you have 30 EVS?

Hopefully we get a big infrastructure bill soon (without all the pork) and we have chargers, nice highways and everything else you can dream of. That would help push ev's a lot since the charging infrastructure is an issue. Even including a subsidy of $2-500 per house who wants to instal one to knock the cost down would be a big boost I bet.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

https://www.accuweather.com/en/business/one-industrys-collapse-creates-uncertainty-for-us-farmers-and-within-the-food-chain/728361

I never thought about this EV down side for corn farmers but this graph is talking about shut down impact on driving.

 

[airbiscuit]

Well, we shouldn't burn food (or coal)!

 

[Gale Hawkins]

How Elon Has Disrupted the World - YouTube

 

[sd455dan]

Interesting analysis of Tesla patent- recently filed for single crystal cathode
with the possibility of being completely Cobalt free and having a higher 4.3 volt rating per cell


Battery day rescheduled to possibly end of May, a quote from Musk

" it will likely be the "most exciting" in Tesla's history. "

Tesla Single Crystal Cathode Patent (Deep Dive) - YouTube

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Interesting analysis of Tesla patent- recently filed for single crystal cathode
with the possibility of being completely Cobalt free and having a higher 4.3 volt rating per cell


Battery day rescheduled to possibly end of May, a quote from Musk

" it will likely be the "most exciting" in Tesla's history. "

Tesla Single Crystal Cathode Patent (Deep Dive) - YouTube

That sounds interesting. Maybe the virus will not get Tesla too far behind schedule. Sounds like good progress at SpaceX as well.

 

[Grumpycat]

Interesting analysis of Tesla patent- recently filed for single crystal cathode
with the possibility of being completely Cobalt free and having a higher 4.3 volt rating per cell

I thought we have been authoritatively told here in no uncertain terms that chemistry is chemistry and physics is physics and all elements have been discovered and everything has already been tried so there will never be any advances in battery technology?