Beating your bounds.

[MossflowerWoods]

dodge man, thanks for your willingness to answer questions!

Dave,

You rock! My surveyor was very much open to my active participation (heck I was paying the $3500, so I was the customer also) but he was similarly VERY willing to answer questions nd help me understand.

I too thank you for both being here on TBN & being willing to answer questions. I will be asking about adverse possession also...

Very cool sir.

There is no way in the world a surveyor can use a transit to shoot through the trees and brush. I am not sure GPS can get a clear view of the sky.

Ed,

My 51 acres was similarly heavily forested, and not surveyed in over 20 years.

I spent a couple days with the crew as they were cutting trails to shoot transit's and record the data. There still are some the temporary marker plastic flags in places. But I also spent a couple hours with the lead on the team to actually walk my boundary and put my foot or hand on every corner I could.

My biggest issue is I have something like 27 "corners" that are the center of the northernmost stream of a branch (creek) in and out of my pond, and the banks of my pond just to make up northern boundary line. Only the western boundary is a straight line (and not due North unfortunately).

The good and bad of a creek is the property line can change. My land went from 49.75 acres 20-30 years ago, to 50.77 acres (all of the gain is a swampy marsh best as I can tell btw) mostly due to more accurate measurements/math, and the creek changed course (or was mis-marked) last time.

It was an amazing process, and I will NEVER buy with out knowing all my corners BEFORE closing.

Thanks,
David

 

[MossflowerWoods]

Dave,

Here is MY adverse posession question...

On one portion of my boundary, I think it is about a 700' run, the neighbors T-Post & wire horse fence meanders onto my side. At the corners, it is about one inch inside their side, and it wanders over about 12' at the widest spot.

The prior owner and they did not get along. But she did try to tell them they were on the wrong side (they followed an old fire road). In 2008 she had just that one line surveyed, showing the position of each T-Post. I have that survey now.

That is the setup.

So, my current survey also noted the fence is across the line. I have given the neighbors a copy of the 2008 survey, and asked them to move their fence. We get along pretty good, I've even offered to help move the fence. We talk often about putting in a gate for shared access to both sides (they have horses, so do I now). In casual conversation, I often mention "when we move the fence"...

My issue is this, they have never outright agreed to move it.

I need to know if I have done enough to prevent adverse possession.

That is really my question. We all get along, and I want to continue to do so, but it is MY land (if you know what I mean). and he is active duty USMC officer and he will someday move back to TX I suspect.

Thanks,
David

 

[new jersey mike]

I have a question for the OP,

My property came with a survey (long and complicated story) which has the 13 degree offset built in.

So when I try to calculate the compass heading between 2 points do I just use my parallel ruler and line up with the compass rose on the survey?

Then when I walk through the wood with my compass do I adjust it for 13 degrees or leave it at zero because the survey has the correction?

The survey was performed back around 2000 do I need to add any additional correction from 2000 to 2012?

My compass is the Silva Ranger.


Thank you

 

[sfloggie]

Good morning.

I owned 80 acres in Arcadia, OK in 2006 which had been surveyed back in the 30s and not lived on since acquired in 1889 (Land Rush).

I got it surveyed shortly AFTER I brought the land end order to do fencing and environmental work on the creek. The fencing was over 50 years old with some on the ground.

The surveyed showed my southern neighbor had moved the fence steadily Northward to the point the fence was 30 feet North of the surveyed line. I later found old fence posts where the fence had been is why I said moved "steadily"....

My East and West neighbors actually showed the fence was 7 feet and 12 feet toward them thus they had lost land. I told them all. The East neighbor said move the fence and the West neighbor said leave it. The South neighbor said noting. At this point I had never heard of Adverse Possession, Reparian Law, etc. But I started learning fast.

1, I coordinated with each neighbor as to the type of fence relative to cattle or horses, since a horse will "run a fence" thus cutting it's neck or legs. All had cattle.

2. Next I coordinated with my southern neighbor that I was moving the fence back South and would do erosion work that helped both of us.

3. The neighbor on the East asked if they could cross our property line to draw some water with a pump. I said OK and drew up an agreement. Next visit to the land, I found they had bulldozed a road across my land to the creek, cut a road down the creek and dammed it!

I contacted the neighbor telling them they had violated our agreement and could have gotting me in trouble as they dammed the creek (Riparian Law)and pushed fill into the creek (Clean Water Act).

This neighbor got mad and then got my Southern neighbor mad at me as they were friends. The Southern neighbor sued me for moving the fence as she said she owned it per Adverse Possession.

After a year of flying back and forth to OK in mediation, I lost. I had to tear not the $16000 new fence, (survey was s$900) but the old fence back on the ground in the place it was originally and pay a cash settlement. I was told I would lose in the OK court because I was not from there and had not asked the neighbor a yes and no question. I thought the neighbor had little money so I never asked for half the cost thus bringing a yes or no.

Soon after I sold the land to a great guy ensuring he knew his neighbors.

We now own 113 acres in VA which I had surveyed for $14,500 and the survey took 1.5 years to finish (another story for another time), but it is finished. I have walked the land with the lead surveyor and marked the corners. I am working on posting every 100 feet.

So Adverse Possession is real and painful. So is Riparian Law, Clean Water Act, and the Corps of Engineer and Federal laws on wetlands. Land is great and keeps my land clear, but people and politicians can make it painful.

best to you,
Jim

 

[sfloggie]

Oh, forgot to add.

I also provide neighbors the survey even in the city. One thing I found is that you want to place any fence, etc about six inches or so inside your boundary line.

If on the line, both neighbors then own the fence. If the fence is in need of repair (or a neighbor thinks so), the neighbor can fix the fence and bill the other neighbor for half. So I stay six inches or so inside.

Jim

 

[Scotty Dive]

My grandfather lost a piece of his land to adverse possession about 5 years ago in Rhode Island. Seems in RI if you maintain a portion of property and can prove it it becomes the land owners responsibility to prove otherwise. No need to notify the owner, or pay taxes or NOTHING

He was 85 at the time and had this empty parcel of land....near the water measured 60 by 120 feet and drove once a year to the town hall with his wife, paid the taxes, and drove by the land. I happened to drive by once and noticed the neighbor had a wood pile and a boat over the boundary. We asked them to stop, wrote a letter and called the police and then installed No Tespassing signs...they sued and showed the court a picture of the wood pile and a picnic table where they had a family party once. It was my Grandfathers burden to break the time cycle by showing he had maintained the land within 10 years of that picture. He could not prove otherwise and lost the land.

A year later I was told by a real estate attorney that all we had to do "was agree that we gave them permission to use it and now we want them off" A little lie but an 85 year old man would not have lost his land that he owned for 40 years.


There is a very special place for those people...

 

[sfloggie]

Wow..Amen Scotty.

Jim

 

[strum456]

This has been a very informative thread.

My question is, what does a surveyor "go by" to get started on a survey. What would you use as a point of reference, and how many such points are needed?

Back on the "neighbor thinks he owns my land" thread, I stated that I don't think anyone in my area knows their lines more accurately than 25 feet. The reason I said that is that most properties have not been surveyed in a very long time. Some neighbors are finding that their legal descriptions dont match their land. In fact, there is a township line crossing the area. We have two townships trying to collect taxes, but neither of them can prove what township some of my neighbors live in. How could a given property owner get an accurate survey that will match the big picture if the county doesnt even know where the township lines are?

 

[GPintheMitten]

This has been a very informative thread.

My question is, what does a surveyor "go by" to get started on a survey. What would you use as a point of reference, and how many such points are needed?

No surveyor here, but there is a "POB Point of beginning" on surveys. Usually a Section corner or Quarter Section corner. When you drive down a country road, ever see those round things that look like small manhole covers about 10 inches in diameter. You pull the cover off and there is a rod under there that marks the corner.

 

[strum456]

No surveyor here, but there is a "POB Point of beginning" on surveys. Usually a Section corner or Quarter Section corner. When you drive down a country road, ever see those round things that look like small manhole covers about 10 inches in diameter. You pull the cover off and there is a rod under there that marks the corner.

Humm...I dont think we have those. I have seen those in some areas though.

 

[dodge man]

Dave,

Here is MY adverse posession question...

On one portion of my boundary, I think it is about a 700' run, the neighbors T-Post & wire horse fence meanders onto my side. At the corners, it is about one inch inside their side, and it wanders over about 12' at the widest spot.

The prior owner and they did not get along. But she did try to tell them they were on the wrong side (they followed an old fire road). In 2008 she had just that one line surveyed, showing the position of each T-Post. I have that survey now.

That is the setup.

So, my current survey also noted the fence is across the line. I have given the neighbors a copy of the 2008 survey, and asked them to move their fence. We get along pretty good, I've even offered to help move the fence. We talk often about putting in a gate for shared access to both sides (they have horses, so do I now). In casual conversation, I often mention "when we move the fence"...

My issue is this, they have never outright agreed to move it.

I need to know if I have done enough to prevent adverse possession.

That is really my question. We all get along, and I want to continue to do so, but it is MY land (if you know what I mean). and he is active duty USMC officer and he will someday move back to TX I suspect.

Thanks,
David

Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, so my advice is worth what you are paying for it You have given your adjoiner "notice" that you know the fence in not on the line, so in my opinion, you have stopped them from being able to claim adverse possession. That is often a tough part of what we do when we survey. We often have to decide when is a fence a boundary, or is it just a fence. We often see fences that are built in a particular location because that was the easy place to put it.

 

[dodge man]

I have a question for the OP,

My property came with a survey (long and complicated story) which has the 13 degree offset built in.

So when I try to calculate the compass heading between 2 points do I just use my parallel ruler and line up with the compass rose on the survey?

Then when I walk through the wood with my compass do I adjust it for 13 degrees or leave it at zero because the survey has the correction?

The survey was performed back around 2000 do I need to add any additional correction from 2000 to 2012?

My compass is the Silva Ranger.


Thank you

Thats a tough one for me to answer without seeing the survey. It depends on what the bearings are based on. If the survey has bearings, such as North 45 degrees West, I would just line up between the two corners and see if it matches your compass. Keep in mind, most surveys are done in bearings, which are always between 0 and 90 degrees, and many compasses are in azimuths which is between 0 and 360 degrees. I've used a compass many times, and compared to modern surveying equipment, they aren't that great. It just depends on what you are trying to do, and there are certain techniques to using a compass.

 

[dodge man]

This has been a very informative thread.

My question is, what does a surveyor "go by" to get started on a survey. What would you use as a point of reference, and how many such points are needed?

Back on the "neighbor thinks he owns my land" thread, I stated that I don't think anyone in my area knows their lines more accurately than 25 feet. The reason I said that is that most properties have not been surveyed in a very long time. Some neighbors are finding that their legal descriptions don't match their land. In fact, there is a township line crossing the area. We have two townships trying to collect taxes, but neither of them can prove what township some of my neighbors live in. How could a given property owner get an accurate survey that will match the big picture if the county doesn't even know where the township lines are?

What do we start from? Thats a tough question and its different in PA than in Illinois. Pa would mostly be a metes and bounds state. I'll try and give a very simple example of a 100' x 100' description. "Commencing at the southeast corner of the John Smith property and run North along the East line of said Smith property 100 feet, thence run East along the South line of the John Doe property 100 feet, thence...............". Say we go to the courthouse and do some research and get the old deeds from John Smith and John Doe, and maybe two other adjoiners. We plot your deed and the adjoiners deeds out and know what they should look like and how they fit together. Then we go out to your property and find a stone wall on your west line, a iron pin on the northeast corner, a fence on the east line, and a road on the south. This all sort of fits together and give a lot dimension that is near 100' x 100'. So in this case we used several things, a road, a fence, a stone wall and a iron pin to fit the survey together. Like you say, sometimes things don't fit perfect, so maybe your 100x100 property ends up being 103'x97'x109'x100'.
Sometimes the starting point might be far away from the actual property, and its often not as simple as I show in the example above.

The other scenario is lots in platted subdivision in a town. In that case, we just go out a look for lot corners until we find enough to set any missing corners. This might just mean looking for a few corners, or an area of several blocks, depending on how many corners are missing.

 

[MossflowerWoods]

Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, so my advice is worth what you are paying for it...

Dave,

Check is in the mail sir!

You really are being totally awesome answering all of these questions.

If you are in DC or Richmond, VA, try to stop by for a beer (my treat)
:drink:

Be well,
David

 

[dodge man]

No surveyor here, but there is a "POB Point of beginning" on surveys. Usually a Section corner or Quarter Section corner. When you drive down a country road, ever see those round things that look like small manhole covers about 10 inches in diameter. You pull the cover off and there is a rod under there that marks the corner.

What you describe is called a monument box. That is not common to all areas, and it pretty rare in Illinois. There are several states that do not use the PLSS, which means the square 1 mile sections of ground. The original 13 Colonies would be these states. Also parts of some states have other land grants that are more metes and bounds, such as Texas, part of Calafornia, and areas in other states. Metes and bounds states would have POB's that would vary, but usually start from some known corners or adjoiners deed.

 

[dodge man]

Dave,

Check is in the mail sir!

You really are being totally awesome answering all of these questions.

If you are in DC or Richmond, VA, try to stop by for a beer (my treat)
:drink:

Be well,
David

Thanks! I always feel educating people on what we do is really important.

 

[strum456]

What do we start from? Thats a tough question and its different in PA than in Illinois. Pa would mostly be a metes and bounds state. I'll try and give a very simple example of a 100' x 100' description. "Commencing at the southeast corner of the John Smith property and run North along the East line of said Smith property 100 feet, thence run East along the South line of the John Doe property 100 feet, thence...............". Say we go to the courthouse and do some research and get the old deeds from John Smith and John Doe, and maybe two other adjoiners. We plot your deed and the adjoiners deeds out and know what they should look like and how they fit together. Then we go out to your property and find a stone wall on your west line, a iron pin on the northeast corner, a fence on the east line, and a road on the south. This all sort of fit together and give a lot dimension that is near 100' x 100'. So in this case we used several things, a road, a fence, a stone wall and a iron pin to fit the survey together. Like you say, sometimes things to fit perfect, so maybe your 100x100 property ends up being 103'x97'x109'x100'.
Sometimes the starting point might be far away from the actual property, and its often not as simple as I show in the example above.

The other scenario is lots in platted subdivision in a town. In that case, we just go out a look for lot corners until we find enough to set any missing corners. This might just mean looking for a few corners, or an area of several blocks, depending on how many corners are missing.

Thanks, that makes sense. Awesome thread!

 

[JRobyn]

One thing that I found very useful (maybe others will too) with my very irregular property boundary, was to buy some inexpensive survey/plotting software. I think I paid about $80. I entered all of my many, many "metes and bounds" in the software. I was quite surprised and happy to find that the whole set of metes and bounds "closed" to within a small amount, like one part in 80,000 or something. That gave me an indication that whoever provided all the original metes and bounds had done something similar to be sure that the survery "closed" accurately.

So after I had everything entered, I plotted it out (just printed on a regular computer printer). I had both aerial photos and the USGS topo maps of the property, so I carefully adjusted the printing SCALE until the printed boundary exactly matched the creeks and bottoms and roads on the photos/topos all the way around. Now I know almost exactly where the boundaries are on the aerial and topo. The software also gave me very accurate acreage data. I can also "trace" around my fields with it to get an accurate acreage measurements for figuring fertilizer/lime, etc.

 

[impdaddy]

Dave. You are really a professional. I am an engineer that needs to hire surveyors often. I also had to take surveying in engineering school. Remember the orange field books?(showing my age). Bottom line you have gone a long way to helping the TBN community understand the complex world of surveys , legal descriptions and boundaries. You should be named next month's TBN member of the month. Muhammed, consider this my nomination.

If I ever have a need close to your area, you will be tops on my list.

Thanks again for your dedication to your Profession and willingness to help.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[dodge man]

Dave. You are really a professional. I am an engineer that needs to hire surveyors often. I also had to take surveying in engineering school. Remember the orange field books?(showing my age). Bottom line you have gone a long way to helping the TBN community understand the complex world of surveys , legal descriptions and boundaries. You should be named next month's TBN member of the month. Muhammed, consider this my nomination.

If I ever have a need close to your area, you will be tops on my list.

Thanks again for your dedication to your Profession and willingness to help.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thank you, we still use the orange field books quite a bit, but a lot of work is all electronic. My degree is in civil engineering, but the winds blew me into the surveying field, but half of my work is for engineering projects. I've already been a TBN member of the month several months back, but thanks for the nod.