Best Mountain Tractor?

GlueGuy · Apr 12, 2002

I stand by my previous statement (even if I can't spell /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif). Here's a little link to illustrate my point: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ask.com/main/metaAnswer.asp?t=m&s=a&en=directhit&o=0&frames=True&url=http%3A%2F%2Fask%2Edirecthit%2Ecom%2Ffcgi%2Dbin%2Fredirurl%2Efcg%3Furl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fhome%2Ea%2Dcity%2Ede%2Fwalter%2Efendt%2Fme%2Fsincostan%5Fe%2Ehtm%26qry%3DCosine%2BSine%2BTangent%26rnk%3D1%26cz%3D87f6eb6fabf13b34%26src%3DDH%5FASK%5FSRCH%26uid%3D0DCE3F7DA326915C3%26sid%3D1CE39F4109F267BC3%26u%3D&ac=62&pt=Sine%2C+cosine+and+tangent+of+an+angle&dm=http%3A%2F%2Fhome%2Ea%2Dcity%2Ede%2Fwalter%2Efendt%2Fme%2Fsincostan%5Fe%2Ehtm&io=0&qid=4D652E3934936249BD804039EF1E3AC5&back=meta%3D1%26site%5Fname%3D%26origin%3D0%26ask%3DCosine%2BSine%2BTangent%26qsource%3D56%26rspick%3Drs&ask=Cosine+Sine+Tangent&dt=020412155208>sine cosine tangent demo</A>

Use your mouse to change the angle. The circle they use in this demonstration is the classic circle with a radius of 1. To get the percent grade, multiply the tangent by 100. You'll also notice that the cosine is the horizontal component of the triangle, the sine is the vertical component of the triangle, and the hypotenuse is always the radius. At 45 degrees, sine and cosine are equal (.707), and the tangent is 1 (x 100 = 100%). As the angle approaches 90 degrees, the tangent approaches infinity.

wasabi · Apr 12, 2002

Veteran Bill, I concur with your degree determination methodology. If I read these cross-currents right, I hear you, Charlie and Egon all saying essentially the same thing with slightly different terms. Clearly degree is different that percent grade. Hundred percent is steep enough for me!

As a mountain man who understands risks, at what angle do you become uncomfortable across hills driving your Kubota B7500, say, dragging either a box scraper or a mower?

TWINKLE_TOES · Apr 12, 2002

GlueGuy,

Which part of your statement are you standing (probably sitting) by? The part where I am confused or the other part?/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif My confusion with your post was based on this part If you operate with a circle with a circle, I think what you meant was If you consider a unit circle (radius = 1) then.....all the rest follows.

My point was with the original post where the guy drove up the road 1000 feet and then calculated the grade as 10%, because he had an elevation gain of 100 feet. The grade was actually 9.949 %. For the grade to be 10% he would need to travel up the road 1005 feet, with the same elevation gain.

Al

GlueGuy · Apr 12, 2002

at what angle do you become uncomfortable across hills driving your Kubota B7500, say, dragging either a box scraper or a mower?

I start to pucker up when the meter shows 10 degrees, as holes & mounds makes it jump up and down. If it shows 15 degrees there is no margin; so when that happens I am at a virtual stop, and I inch forward/back & try to get it in a less stressful position. It's gotten over 15 a couple of times, so I know there is some fudge room left, but I'm not inclined to test it.

Charlie_Iliff · Apr 12, 2002

Doug: I don't have a meter on my Power Trac 1845, but I've done some rough measurements of slopes I mow. I'm fairly sure I don't reach the pucker factor at 15, but I certainly do at 25-30 degrees. With duals, they say it will go to 40 degrees. Not with me on it. Last weekend, I slid it sideways into a fence, which required some extraction with another vehicle. It was on about a 20-25 degree slope, with the rough cut mower in draft control mode, on wet grass. The slide was slow, and only when I was under power, but I ran out of maneuvering room. The angle of the slope is only one part of the risk analysis. Roughness, obstacles, and traction are also contributers.
I like the Power Trac because it would be very hard to turn it over unless you have a heavy bucket high. It isn't hard, however, to get in trouble sliding. For genuine mountain work, I'd probably load the PT tires, use aggressive ag or R4 tread, and keep reminding myself to slow down.

ByuBill · Apr 13, 2002

Wasabi,
I'm with you. One of the worst headaches I've had in a long time. These guys lost me a long time ago. Who started all of slope, grade, rise, run, hypotinuse, cosine, sin, tangent, stuff anyway? I'm sure that I didn't have anything to do with it./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif. All that I know is when I am on a steep slope and the rear wheel of my tractor starts to rise, I want to run./w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
I was told that my driveway was between 30 and 35deg, % or something. After all of this I don't even know any more. I think that Roy Jackson posted that the best way to check was to use a 100" 2x4. I figured, why not. So when all of these guys get all of this figured out maybe one of them can set me straight and tell me the % grade of my driveway. I used the 100" 2x4, a 4' level and a tape measure. I checked in six places on my driveway. the vertical measurements were between 27" and 31" and averaged 28.7666666" at 100".
All I know is that it is steep and I don't want to try and turn the tractor around on it./w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif.

For my Power Trac 1845, with dual tires, 25% to 35% mowing, side hill cutting even, is a piece of cake. I think that when Charlie slid into that fence, he must have gotten off into the icing... /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Have a good'un guys. This has been real interesting.

Charlie_Iliff · Apr 13, 2002

ByuBill
For my Power Trac 1845, with dual tires, 25% to 35% mowing, side hill cutting even, is a piece of cake. I think that when Charlie slid into that fence, he must have gotten off into the icing...
Picking that quote couldn't have proven your point better. 25% to 35% wouldn't have been a problem with dual ags even on the icing. Unfortunately, I was on something over 20 degrees

ver 35%, in the wet, with single turfs.
I guess the degree to percent conversion is what started all this, but whatever the trigonometry, when it's steep, it's easy to get in trouble.

ByuBill · Apr 13, 2002

Charlie,,,,,
when it's steep, it's easy to get in trouble.
I couldn't agree with you more... I have had a back wheel off the ground with the fel full more than once/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif just going up my drive in the switchback. Not any fun at all.
I have to rely on what I have read about the PT's because I have never seen one in person. I truly think that they are amazing.With the low center of gravity it would be hard to turn one over unless you tried real hard. I just think that some are not thinking about the sliding effect on a non-ideal surfaced 45% (more or less) slope. Anytime that any of us are on a slope on anything the law of gravity is just sitting there waiting to take over. So if we all keep this in mind we will have a lot more fun playing (working) on our tractors. With so many first time tractor owners, I would hate to see anyone learn the hard way.

Slamfire · Apr 13, 2002

I spent considerable time on the seat of an Oliver OC-3 crawler. It had the widest track available 68" and was wonderful for sidehilling, until you crawled up on a pole hidden in the leaves. There's pucker power in a sideways slide downhill. ;^)

RoyJackson · Apr 13, 2002

I checked in six places on my driveway. the vertical measurements were between 27" and 31" and averaged 28.7666666" at 100".
All I know is that it is steep and I don't want to try and turn the tractor around on it.

That works out to a 28.77% slope (or 16.04°)...close to the limit and plenty of pucker power!!

One of the guys posted about sliding sideways on wet grass...
Boy, I was going across a slope (maybe 10°...or less) in a 1972 GMC 4x4 pickup (real macho truck...who needs power steering and any other amenities?!). Well, wet grass...every foot forward I went down slope a foot...until I hit a fence at the bottom. Had a heck of a time getting that truck out of there...
Yepper, wet grass is slicker then greased owl ****...

Egon · Apr 13, 2002

Al:
Maybe think of %slope or the degrees angle in the same manner in which the pitch of you roof is determined or a set of stairs are laid out using a carpenters square.

Egon

Egon · Apr 13, 2002

Slamfire:

We used to weld caulks on the track grousers for working in steep places or in the winter when the ground was frozen.

Egon

GlueGuy · Apr 13, 2002

Did I say that?!? /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

No wonder you were confused. My fingers must have been disconnected from my brain... What I meant to say that if you operate with a circle with a radius of 1...

wasabi · Apr 13, 2002

Thanks guys, I think I'm getting a more realistic picture.

Egon, your suggestion of likening the grade to a roof pitch makes sense to me, but confess I still, even after 30 years of working with one, can't confidently say I understand all those chicken scratches on the framing square!

Charlie, GlueGuy, Roy, Slamfire (just how did you get that handle anyway? Are you fond of jalepenos?): Your illustrations are more along the lines of what I was looking for to try and guage what happens, since I am anovice with an absence of significant seat time like you guys. I know it won't be real until I get there, but I'm trying to at least mentally (along with financially) prepare...and guage the import of the right gear, which I at this point I estimate to be firstmost!!

GlueGuy...if you're not inclined to test it over 15 degrees, I'll venture no one is. Thx, you've helped quantify the pucker factor.

Gotta love those duals. eh Charlie? Perhaps your story is the type that inspired Paul Simon to write his song "Slip sliding away"

Carl_NH · Apr 13, 2002

Egon,

I'm back, re the reference to roof pitch, as this was what I posted a few pages ago, very few of us will drive their unit on the roof ( the grass roof and straw bale guys are the exception) but gives a good frame of reference. If any of you build stuff 22.5 degrees is a common cut esp when cutting the tails of rafters on a 12/12 pitch, or builiding a outdoor table..

Carl

bubenberg · Apr 13, 2002

the mountain farmers in the pre alpes, are rather well motorized. their experience is also gaining in that for some it is the third generation with single or multi axle tractors. AND their biggest fear is to flip one of these things onto them self or just damaging wagon, loads such as cheese, flower, or expensive appliances.

certain statistics claim that powered mountain vehicles are one of the highest source of fatality in the mountain farming. most of these people are not frivolous dear devils, but rather conservative , cautious and because of the meager income one can carve out of a mountain farm, also very frugal ... i know charlie, i fell of the devils cart ..that is way they sent me to the usa ... too knutts to farm in the bernis oberland.

these farmers would not gamble with their life and equipment. but still many get hurt in their daily performance of mowing, haying, logging, plowing, removing snow or transporting them self or their family up and down the mountain sides.

MossRoad · Apr 15, 2002

I did something similar to that with a toyota landcruiser, only the fence was a river /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif. I was going parallel to the river across a very low slope when I got into the slickest mud I've ever seen. Forwards, slide towards the river. Backwards, slide towards the river. Couldn't get out. Had to call for a tow. I can only imagine your situation. How did you tow it out?

RoyJackson · Apr 15, 2002

How did you tow it out?

Left it there for a day (this was in a suburb..just behind my sister's rental home). When the grass dried out, I bulled my way out. Didn't mess the fence up (heavy duty chain link) but I scratched the paint on the truck pretty badly. Also tore the grass up at the fence. Wasn't a big deal, truck was a worker, not too pretty anyway.
Rather embarassing situation though....

Charlie_Iliff · Apr 15, 2002

Forwards, slide towards the fence. Backwards, slide towards the fence.

Exactly right. To get out, embarassing as it is for a Power Trac, we detached the mower, pulled straight sideways with a Ford Explorer, of all things, at the top of the hill with a chain to the PT trailer hitch, and backed it out. Then we hooked the Power Trac to the mower with the chain, pulled it to the top of the hill, attached it and went back to work.