Best Mountain Tractor?

TWINKLE_TOES · Apr 9, 2002

Roy,

I think "Grade" is Rise/Run, which is a sin function. The sin of 40 deg is 0.643. Expressed as a percentage, sin 40deg/sin 90 deg= 64.3%
Al

RoyJackson · Apr 9, 2002

I think "Grade" is Rise/Run, which is a sin function. The sin of 40 deg is 0.643. Expressed as a percentage, sin 40deg/sin 90 deg= 64.3%
Al

The error I made was thinking 90° was a 100% slope. This was clarified by a number of folks who explained 45° is a 100% slope.
I think you're making the same assumption I did initially.

If we follow your math, the percent difference between a 40° slope (at 64.3%) and a 45° slope (which, per other poster (and I agree)) would be 35.7° or over 1/3rd the total.
That doesn't appear to be correct.
You might want to draw this out on paper, Al...

Of course, I've not had my first cuppa coffee yet....brain's still a little fuzzy.

Charlie_Iliff · Apr 9, 2002

Al:
There have been a whole series of posts on this. I think Roy started out comparing the slope to 90 degrees, but we couldn't find any reference to that in a search. Where the run is horizontal distance, not the length of the surface (hypotenuse), rise divided by run is the tangent. So, for 40 degrees it is .839 or 83.9 percent. Concensus on the thread seems to be that grade can exceed 100% if steeper than 45 degrees. If you look back in the thread, you'll see some great suggestions for measuring. All we need is a TBN convention, some skyhooks, and a thermometer to make sure the steel measuring tape is accurate to a fraction of an angstrom. (I almost used the acronym for the smallest measure known to man, but decided it wasn't appropriate for a family board.)

TWINKLE_TOES · Apr 9, 2002

Roy/Charlie,

I stand corrected, but not convinced. Maybe before I get corrected again, I should say.. I sit corrected but not convinced./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif In the link to "Howstuff works" the guy says you travel up this road 1000 feet and its a 10% grade. He then equates this to the tangent. How did he travel along the horizontal if he was going up this 10% grade? He traveled on the hypotonuse which is the sin. I'm betting that when the dust settles on this one everyone is correct in different diciplines or geographic locations. The real solution is keep the grade less than 5 degrees and the sin and tan are equal to three decimal points./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Al

Charlie_Iliff · Apr 9, 2002

The real solution is keep the grade less than 5 degrees and the sin and tan are equal to three decimal points
Al:
Since most train stuff is in that range, you're probably right. The rise/run terminology I've heard as a definition of tangent in other contexts, however, including as a definition of first derivative in calculus class (that I didn't do very well in a hell of a long time ago, so the memory might be completely erroneous.) A friend of mine reported that he was taught in a surveying course that slopes in percentages were the tangents expressed as percent, but he's not a surveyor, he just took a course some years ago.

TWINKLE_TOES · Apr 9, 2002

Charlie,

I think your right. I have most often seen the grade expressed as the rate of change of the grade line. The change in elevation divided by the distance traveled. i.e. the tangent.
definition of first derivative in calculus class 
Your memory serves you well. If you examine the limit of this relation as the distance traveled approaches zero you have the first derivative. I still sit corrected /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Al

Moon · Apr 10, 2002

Sounds like a mowing monster! Over 7' cut on each pass. Cool, very cool.
The invite is open to you or Charlie anytime. I'd really like to see a PT1845 on my property, and if Charlie brought his is about that only way that will happen!
Good luck on getting your PT soon. I'm getting real anxious for mine .....

Moon · Apr 10, 2002

Yo wasabi;
This thread has spread many directions with lots of good info. I was just wondering if you had decided what might fit the bill best for your situation?
Moon

wasabi · Apr 10, 2002

Moon,

I've not witten the check yet, but am strongly leaning toward the Power-Trac 1430 with some, but not all, of the trimmings, if (and this is a significant if) I can locate the elusive budget strecher.

I've seriously considering a Grande L Kubota, but am heavily swayed by the PT quick connect and lower center of gravity. I'm guessing a trip to PT land will seal the deal. So many projects, so little time....

In the meantime I'm enjoying the research as Charlie suggested.

wasabi · Apr 10, 2002

......Split rail fence. No postholes. 

Egon, Do you pen in animals with that fence? If so, how many rails high does it have to be? Pics?

Egon · Apr 10, 2002

Wasabi:

They can be used to pen in some types of animals. The height and suitability would depend on the animal, its size and jumping or burrowing capability and gender depending on the rutting season.
I don't have any pictures.

Egon

Egon · Apr 10, 2002

Split rail fence:

Picture attached:

Egon

wasabi · Apr 10, 2002

Nice. Looks like it might work for cattle, but not horses.

Moon · Apr 10, 2002

Sounds good wasabi! I'm making the trip to trazewell real soon. I talked to Chris. Like many have said; they offer to put you up in a local motel if you want it. Chris estimated my drive time at 4 hrs 20 mins, so I'm planning a one day trip rather than overnight it. I need that buget strecher too. I'd love to have a dually 1845, but I'm seriously looking at the 425 for now. Then I'll shop around and drive the 2410 / 2910 Kubota, and equivalent NH and JD offerings to compare. decisions decisions .....

wasabi · Apr 10, 2002

Grey,

Sounds like we are traveling parallel paths.

I try to follow the old adage of measuring twice before cutting. I've been looking for a bit over a year and am still researching, but these guys have me all amped up and darn near convinced (from the armchair) about the PT. As mentioned before, they sure are good at spending my money....they have already almost effortlessly doubled my budget. An amazing feat, considering my supposed superior financial prowess!!

Moon · Apr 10, 2002

Boy you hit the nail on the head with that one. I thought 10 grand would get me plenty of tractor. Like you i've been looking for awhile now. I made do with a little ole mitsubushi for the last 2 years waiting until i was ready to take the big plunge. Now I'm there, I've sold the mitsu and my tractor budget has gone thru the roof. Whatever we end up with, we're sure alot wiser than we would have been because of all the great input here on TBN. Good luck in your hunt for the right tractor.
Moon

GlueGuy · Apr 11, 2002

Al,

You're getting your trigonometry names mixed up. If you operate with a circle with a circle, then you can think of the different parts this way:

Radius of the circle is the hypotinuse
Distance horizontal is the cosine
Distance vertical is the sin
Percent grade is the sin/cosine (AKA tangent)

So at 45 degrees (and assuming the radius is 1),
the cosine (horizontal) is .707
the sin (vertical) is .707
Percent grade is 1 (x 100) or .707/.707 or 100%

Maybe a picture?

TWINKLE_TOES · Apr 12, 2002

Glue Guy,
Read it again. I think your confused. When the fellow followed the road i.e. the grade line, he followed the hypotenuse.
The sine is the rise divided by the hypotenuse. The cosine is the run divided by the hypotenuse and the tangent is the rise divided by the run.

Radius of the circle is the hypotinuse Radius = Rise x Sin or Radius = run x cosine
 Distance horizontal is the cosine distance horizontal = cosine x hypotenuse
 Distance vertical is the sin distance vertical =sin x hypotenuse

If I am confused at least I can spell it./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Al

Egon · Apr 12, 2002

Fellows:

Road grades and railway grades are all based on horizontal distance. Check the profiles of highway/railway lines and this becomes very evident. Plotted quite a few in my younger day. Surveyed a few of them too. Distances are all measured horizontal for this type application.

The easiest way to figure it is the vertical rise in 100 horizontal ft. It gives you % grade. Please remember that % grade is used in a much different context than Degrees of slope.

A railway grade of 2% is considered steep. It will require more locomotives. I'm not sure what the % grade is on the Interlaken railway in Switzerland but they must use cog wheels on some parts. It's kinda neat when you can feel them kick in. On major highways handling large loaded trucks 8% is either lower gears or lots of cubic inches.

Now if you are in the backcountry on skis when the slope starts to approach 30 degrees you get real concerned about avalanches and take appropriate measures.

On a bicycle your legs will really explain what a 8% grade is but its a real good excuse for consuming a hydrating liquid. [ Spelled Beer ]

Egon

wasabi · Apr 12, 2002

Man, you guys are hurting my head...I vote we rank the grades in ranges...perhaps along the lines of the fabled "ten stages of drunkenness".

1) At what degree grade does it become "eyebrow raising steep" for you guys?

2) When does it jump to "pucker-squared steep"?

3) What are the phases in between?

4) How do conditions effect your rankings?

5) What are your best tricks, caveats and recommends?

Thx, Sabi