BH Question: Digging trenches

[MFortie]

Is there a 'correct' way to dig trenches with a backhoe? Forward or backwards? In other words, if I'm sitting in the BH seat, do I want to be digging and moving towards my end point or away from it?

Or is merely preference?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Storm56]

I cannot say I have ever seen someone digging towards the end, unless it was a really unique circumstance. Under normal conditions the front of my tractor is always pointed to the end. Two reasons, first off what do you do with your dirt? I simply pile it beside the ditch I am digging, be kind of tough to get the machine over it unless you put it way off to the side, too much lost time and motion, plus you just make more of a mess. Secondly I certainly do not want the ditch under my machine where I might run into it or cave the ditch in.

 

[MFortie]

:duh:

I cannot say I have ever seen someone digging towards the end, unless it was a really unique circumstance. Under normal conditions the front of my tractor is always pointed to the end. Two reasons, first off what do you do with your dirt? I simply pile it beside the ditch I am digging, be kind of tough to get the machine over it unless you put it way off to the side, too much lost time and motion, plus you just make more of a mess. Secondly I certainly do not want the ditch under my machine where I might run into it or cave the ditch in.

:duh: Guess that was a dumb question - if I had given just a little thought to it...

 

[wrooster]

Is there a 'correct' way to dig trenches with a backhoe? Forward or backwards? In other words, if I'm sitting in the BH seat, do I want to be digging and moving towards my end point or away from it? Or is merely preference? Thanks, Mark

Mark,

Your next question should be "how do i make a nice, professional-looking flat-bottomed trench with a backhoe?" -- which ultimately leads to a related but very important question "how do i make a nice professional-looking flat-bottomed trench without disturbing the ground at the bottom of the trench, so thereafter i can build a foundation on the undisturbed soil?"

This is what separates the BH hacks from the BH pros.

Wrooster <-- not a BH pro.

 

[Storm56]

Practice....

 

[Gary Fowler]

I have been using my B26 now for about 20 hours of digging and have gotten fairly good with it and keeping the bottom of the ditch the same depth from top of ground when digging for a sprinkler system. Where the good operators come in is with keeping the ditch bottom level when going up or down a hill without someone constantly checking it with a transit level. Same with dozer operator when leveling out hills for flat foundations, etc. One needs a good practiced eye for that or calibrated level in their head. I can get close by eyeball on ditching, levees etc but one sure needs a transit level to verify final grade on anything.

On original question, only way to keep your spoils out of the ditch is to dig toward your machine. So you need to extend you hoe to far out as it will reach minus about a foot, set the stabilizers and FEL to hold everything level then dig as close as you can before raising everything up and moving back to start the process over again. I did have to straddle a ditch that was about 18" deep that I had dug several days ago prior to a rain that washed in a bunch of dirt and mud. Clean out was easy digging, but had to watch the tires to stay centered not only for not getting into the ditch but also to keep the ditch centered under the backhoe otherwise you have to swing as you move the dipper stick to stay centered. That puts a little different touch to the controls

 

[MFortie]

Mark,

Your next question should be "how do i make a nice, professional-looking flat-bottomed trench with a backhoe?" -- which ultimately leads to a related but very important question "how do i make a nice professional-looking flat-bottomed trench without disturbing the ground at the bottom of the trench, so thereafter i can build a foundation on the undisturbed soil?"

This is what separates the BH hacks from the BH pros.

Wrooster <-- not a BH pro.

Thanks all for the replies!

Fortunately, I have a couple thousand feet of water lines and conduit to practice with before I have to do any foundation work!

I've also heard I should practice dragging the bucket teeth along the ground without digging in to practice making a flat bottom trench...

So, do I want the outriggers lifting the back tires off the ground or just down enough to stabilize the machine?

 

[Car Doc]

Thanks all for the replies!

Fortunately, I have a couple thousand feet of water lines and conduit to practice with before I have to do any foundation work!

I've also heard I should practice dragging the bucket teeth along the ground without digging in to practice making a flat bottom trench...

So, do I want the outriggers lifting the back tires off the ground or just down enough to stabilize the machine?

I am more of a hack at BH operation simply because its awhile between jobs. I am back to pretty darn good at the end and pretty slow at the start.

I usually as far as the outriggers go leave the tires on the ground dont know whats right. I can move the tractor around either way seems maybe less with the tires on the ground and the bucket curled down and on the dirt just have to try and see what works best for you!

 

[Egon]

The outriggers should lift the back tires off the ground and also level the backhoe. Bucket cutting edge should be down with front tIres off the ground. For the smaller equipment things may be done a little different.

 

[LD1]

I always leave the back tires on or as close to the ground as possible. By as close as possible, I mean that there are times when you have to raise one side more than the other just to get the hoe level. That is okay. And my FEL I leave flat on the ground. Infact, my ford 5500 manual from 1967 actually has two pics in it. One with the outriggers lifting the tires with a big X through it saying WRONG, and the other with the bads and tires BOTH on the ground and a big CORRECT by it. Just remember, due to the arc that the pads travel in, the more you lower them, the narrower your footprint becomes and it becomes less stable when dumping at max reach to the side. It also raises the center of gravity the more you raise the tractor.

As to the digging a nice smooth trench, it does take a lot of practice. Doing it on flat ground without actually digging is a good idea. But the general gist of trenching:

Start as far as you can reach (as others mentioned.) dont try to dig to depth all at once at the very end of the reach. Instead, take a few inches off the top in as close as you can get. And then a few more, and a few more, until you get the depth. To do this, you need to start with the bucket rolled in a good bit so the teeth arent pointing straight down, rather back towards you. Not quite parallel with the ground, but maybe down 10-20 degrees so they bite. Crowd in with the dipper while raising the boom at the same time to keep it level. You will also have to keep rolling out (dumping) the bucket to maintain the angle of attack. When the bucket is full, curl, raise, swing, and dump and start over.

If you try to get to depth all at once, basically just plunging into the ground, curling, and breaking out repeatidly, you will end up with a very choppy and un-even trench bottom. Cutting the whole lenght that you can reach in a "horizontal" direction a bit at a time leaves a more even and smoother trench. Once you have done as far as you can reach, move the tractor forward and start again. Pretty soon you will be good at judging how far forward to move. You want to move so that where you just left off is about a foot or so less than your max reach.

It does take a lot of practice but you will be good in no-time.

 

[boggen]

call julie to come out and get all your lines marked (gas, water, electrical, internet, telephone) a backhoe bucket you will never fell hitting them metal or plastic. the backhoe will most likely keep on going till you finally see! and torn out a good amount of pipe. with that, suggest hand digging near other lines

=============
side of shed -----tractor ------ side of house

side of shed ---backhoe bucket -> tractor pointing towards house
side of house ---backhoe bucket -> tractor pointing towards shed

some place between shed and house getting both trenches to meet. can be the problem.

=========

if you have a good length of trench to put in. run a string and get second person to get string tight, then take a can of spray paint to mark center of trench line.

the FEL (front end loader) measure your bucket for center, and put a piece of tape. on center.

you now have a painted line, and mark on front bucket, to drive along to help keep your trenches straight.

word of caution make sure you have your out riggers up before you try and drive forward. you can twist and bend out riggers if ya do not.

if you need to clean up sides of trench some. do so before making last pass or two of bottom. so you can maintain a clean flat bottom.

if you have to dig up near a house be extremely careful of not raising backhoe up into the sofit of the house.

if you will be doing some regrading / reshaping of the land after trench is put in. try to do the reshaping of the land before hand. makes for easier digging of trench vs going up little hills and trying to judge depth of trench and keeping it smooth.

be careful when you curl the bucket when it is near the tractor, there is a chance the teeth on the bucket will come up and snag the bottom swing cylinders, or catch an out rigger.

personally prefer barely taking pressure off of tires when placing FEL down and putting down out riggers. and adjust left or right out rigger to get things level.

pending on terrian i may position the FEL (front end loader) bucket, differently. to help keep tractor form skidding down a hill other times i may just put curled back side of front bucket on ground more so on the yard. so i do not tear up the yard as much. and not as aggressive with backhoe.

 

[Gary Fowler]

All good tips from Boggen and LD1. I was having a bit of sliding problem digging in my hard clay full of rocks so I welded some 3/8" thick by 1" tall flat bar to the bottom of my outrigger pads. This allows me to put a bit more pressure on the hoe without sliding the tractor backward. I does eat up the grass a bit but makes for a much more stable platform. As for how far down to put the stabilizers, I put the one on the high side down enough to take pressure off the tire and the low side I then raise till the tractor is level. If working downhill, I have to dump my bucket all the way and stand it on its edge to get a bit of level front to back. I think my B26 FEL only goes about 3" below grade when the pan is flat so have to dump it at bit to get any leveling at all on hills..
I have never seen a backhoe set up as to where it would snag the swing cylinders BUT they will certainly snag the stabilizers if you swing all the way and have the bucket extended all the way also.

 

[boggen]

I have never seen a backhoe set up as to where it would snag the swing cylinders BUT they will certainly snag the stabilizers if you swing all the way and have the bucket extended all the way also.

my bad stating swing cylinders, not sure what the lower support is called that swing cylinders connect to, along with the boom. but have touched that lower support the bottom side of it, a couple times. to much dirt, and mis judging were bucket was in the pile of dirt i scooped up.

 

[CurlyDave]

Another thing I like to keep in mind is that I always lift the outrigger on the high side of the machine first.

Lift the one on the low side too fast and I can get into a very "puckery" situation with the whole machine bouncing on the low side tire...

 

[MFortie]

All good info! Thanks much!

Don't have to worry about digging anything up as I'm replacing everything except septic and I know where those are. Power is overhead (phone would be too if I didn't have AT&T disconnect it). I'm trenching for new water lines from the well to the storage tank and then to the houses and new propane lines also.

So how long should it take me to dig a 1000' trench, 10" wide (bucket width) and 18" deep? (One 90 degree turn...) Soil is pretty sandy -- my old place I just about had to stand on top of the post hole auger to get it to cut; this place it will screw itself into the ground at an idle if I'm not careful!

Thanks,

Mark

Mark

 

[LD1]

So how long should it take me to dig a 1000' trench, 10" wide (bucket width) and 18" deep? (One 90 degree turn...)

Depends on how deep ya go Also depends on the machine. The depth of the bucket make the most difference. Width has little to do with speed of trenching. A 10" wide and 18" deep bucjet wont trench as fast as a 20" bucket that is deeper. Because depth is what determines how many lineal feet of trench you can dig before having to dump. Regardless of width. Because same depth but different width buckets, would take the EXACT same number of scoops per given distance.

So..... all that said, if going about 3' deep, and soil is softer, I can probabally do 120-150 ft per hour with my old and slow (but powerful) hoe. It is quite a tall and deep bucket too. So ~ a full day to do 1000ft @ 3' down. But depends on equipment and skill.

 

[Car Doc]

So how long should it take me to dig a 1000' trench, 10" wide (bucket width) and 18" deep? (One 90 degree turn...) Soil is pretty sandy -- my old place I just about had to stand on top of the post hole auger to get it to cut; this place it will screw itself into the ground at an idle if I'm not careful!

Thanks,

Mark

Mark

Just sayin so dont take it personal Mark its not meant that way I know you want to work your BH. But you could do that job with a rental ditch witch in 1/10 of the time or less and a lot less fuel etc and be near perfectly level just saying 1000 ft is a ways BH are better suited for square and rectangular holes. jmho ymmv as always

Now with that said in real sandy easy digging soil...I might set my tractor real straight with my trench. And set the bucket almost flat on the ground curled to where it would skid w/o picking up dirt and dig w/o riggers down and then push the tractor with the stinger. I might be pretty quick but thats only my theory. if someone was to say it couldn't be done (like LD1's sig) I would jump on the idea like a goose on a june bug but I am not known for being conventional. I might even have someone sitting on the tractor with the brakes on and move the tractor when I want moved...just to beat the ditch witch which I still think is a lost cause an 18" trench can be dug at a fast walking pace with a 40 hp machine.

 

[MFortie]

Just sayin so dont take it personal Mark its not meant that way I know you want to work your BH. But you could do that job with a rental ditch witch in 1/10 of the time or less and a lot less fuel etc and be near perfectly level just saying 1000 ft is a ways BH are better suited for square and rectangular holes. jmho ymmv as always

Now with that said in real sandy easy digging soil...I might set my tractor real straight with my trench. And set the bucket almost flat on the ground curled to where it would skid w/o picking up dirt and dig w/o riggers down and then push the tractor with the stinger. I might be pretty quick but thats only my theory. if someone was to say it couldn't be done (like LD1's sig) I would jump on the idea like a goose on a june bug but I am not known for being conventional. I might even have someone sitting on the tractor with the brakes on and move the tractor when I want moved...just to beat the ditch witch which I still think is a lost cause an 18" trench can be dug at a fast walking pace with a 40 hp machine.

SSHHHH! Don't let my wife hear that! That was part of the argument to get her to agree to the extra cost of the BH!

Jeez, some guys just gotta ruin it for the rest of us! :laughing: (Just kidding...)

I figure I can work on it a little at a time and learn as I go. I probably have more than 1000' to trench, but don't need to do all of it at once. Besides, you're right -- I do like to 'play' with my toys.

I could always send her off for the day to do something and run down to the rental yard (but it is an hour away) and get the ditch witch... :superman: "Look honey, see what I got done while you were gone?"

 

[Car Doc]

SSHHHH! Don't let my wife hear that! That was part of the argument to get her to agree to the extra cost of the BH!

Jeez, some guys just gotta ruin it for the rest of us! :laughing: (Just kidding...)

I figure I can work on it a little at a time and learn as I go. I probably have more than 1000' to trench, but don't need to do all of it at once. Besides, you're right -- I do like to 'play' with my toys.

I could always send her off for the day to do something and run down to the rental yard (but it is an hour away) and get the ditch witch... :superman: "Look honey, see what I got done while you were gone?"

I sure hope she doesn't see that ditch witch suggestion I made oops! Honestly wasn't trying to sabotage you really! I know what it takes to get big purchases by the finance dept and being able to use them right off really helps sink the idea in I did it too on a project I had!

Pics will be very cool once you get going on the trench etc we will be looking forward to seeing some have fun with the new hoe!

 

[boggen]

ditch witch does not always cut the cake. when ya get into roots to rocks, it can stop a ditch which chain saw blade in a heart beat. and then ya back at it with a backhoe to get through the rock and roots.