Big or small what does it all?

[Brokermike]

New member, long time lurker with a question. I am going tractor shopping tomorrow with my brother. I recently finished building my first home and have about $15-17,000 left for my tractor budget. I live in southern Vermont and have just under 9 acres of a wooded lot that is filled with hardwoods, apples and some wetland. I am really struggling with what I should buy for a tractor. My brother is convinced he wants to buy a subcompact with a backhoe and I was initially looking at a new Challenger 265 with a toothbar, but am leaning towards a subcompact. I have a laundry list of things that need to be done at my house, both now and in the future.

I need to:

Maintain my driveway (400ft of gravel, currently snow covered)

Landscape my house, including cutting a bank behind the house, moving large rocks, spreading topsoil, possibly building a small swale.

Remove stumps (3"-5" diameter trees that I cut and burned)

Install raised beds for my vegetable garden

Dig up small shrubs and tall grasses

Move lots of brush to burn

Haul out remnants of loggin operation for firewood use

Manage woodland and small orchard

Possibly dig small pond (though I think I'd have to rent an excavator to do this efficiently)


Does anyone have any thoughts as to the versatility of the sub-compacts versus a larger tractor with a toothbar? In case anyone was wondering about the decision to look at a Challenger, I think I can buy a new 265B with a toothbar and box blade for $17500 (does that seem like a good deal?)

 

[Brokermike]

I neglected to mention that I already have a lawnmower, so the subcompact will not be doing any mowing work if I buy it. Also didn't mention that my soil is soft and that I intend to use the loader with toothabr to do alot of digging.

 

[rdbrumfield]

Having had several different tractors over the past 40yrs from 8n's to a50hp Jd. I would think in your case I would want something with at least 25hp, 4wheel drive and a front loader to start. You will most likely be looking for gadgets to hook to the rear as you need them.
One thing is, don't sell yourself short on the size of the tractor. Moving brush,stumps, firewood, mowing, spreading gravel and such takes something more than a lawntractor.
The one thing I miss is a two speed rear pto. I had that on my first Kubota and my two yanmars. The Jd I have now just has the standard. I run a large log splitter of it and ir would be nice to have the higher pto speeds. As it is I am converting the splitter to a gas, self contained one. It will still have the 3pt latch up so I can move it around and it makes it stable when picking up large pieces.
Good luck on your choice. It is one that you will enjoy for years and save a lot of backbreaking work.

 

[rdbrumfield]

One more thing you might consider.
I do a lot of front loader work. In clay I use a tiller to soften up the soil before digging, goes much faster and is easier on the tractor. They also make some cheap rippers for the 3pt if you don't want to spend the bucks for a tiller. The rippers are also good for rooting small stumps. you have a lot more pulling power than when pushing. by ripping the roots close to the stump, taking them out with the loader is much easier. A ripper on a hard packed gravel road is a help too. By prepping it with one and putting on an angle backblade the results are much better.

 

[Builder]

Conside a grapple bucket attachment & hydraulic valve to operate it. Sounds like you'll be needing to grasp lots of roots, stumps, brush, etc.

 

[Dmace]

My 20hp Kioti CK20HST could do all the tasks you list and then some. I have a front end loader which is pretty much a neccesity and with 1085lbs of lift capacity, it will lift larger rocks then you think. The backhoe was a given since I had a ton of small trees and stumps to rip out and a 200ft swale to create for culvert water runoff. The backhoe is amazing for a small machine, I find myself strapping the tractor to a tree or truck just so the backhoe doesn't pull the tractor around. Even with it's weight the backhoe is just so powerful.

I got the heated cab and snowblower just for snow removal and it sure is nice, but I have moved to a plow truck and only use the tractor to move the large banks and clean in the tight areas.

The boxblade has become a useful tool and is awesome for smoothing out my 500ft gravel drive and ripping out the tons of small rocks in my soon to be front yard.

For your price range, I bet you could get a brand new CK20HST with loader, backhoe, and boxblade for around $17k. Even less for a gear model, but I find HST perfect for loader and snowblower work.

Since you are not worried about mowing, I would go with industrial tires and have them filled for more weight and make sure you get the updated loader. As far as a toothbar, it sounds like there are a ton of people here with a Markham Welding toothbar and very happy with them.

Happy shopping!

Kioti webpage

 

[chh]

From looking at the spec, it looks like the Challenger is the same as a MF 1533, they are actually both from AGCO. It should do pretty much everything you are talking about. A grapple on the bucket as mentioned would make moving brush and stumps easier. A backhoe attachment would make getting them out of the ground much easier also. You could get a lot done with just the front end loader and a box blade to start. 17.5 sounds like a good price.

 

[ChuckinNH]

Dmace.. I'm going to have to come to your side of the state shopping! A hold over CK20 gear with the back hoe, and old style loader is on sale at $17,500, and the hydro setup is at $18,900.....

I do agree with your recommendations for the OP's requirements.

 

[Dmace]

Dmace.. I'm going to have to come to your side of the state shopping! A hold over CK20 gear with the back hoe, and old style loader is on sale at $17,500, and the hydro setup is at $18,900.....

I do agree with your recommendations for the OP's requirements.

Apparently, I got a really good deal at Batchelder's when I bought my CK20 in October of 2005. I just took the price I paid and subtracted the price of the cab and snowblower. Of course my deal also included delivery, 50-hr service, grill guard, 16" BH bucket, Bigfoot BH feet, filled tires, and great service. I am sure the prices have gone up a little, but you also get a better loader, an unbeatable 4 year warranty and 2 extra hp.

To the original poster, look at the standard features on those challengers and other manufacturers, then look at the suspension seat, fender mounted FEL joystick, cup holder, live independent PTO, cruise control, etc and you see you typically get more with a Kioti.

 

[tomd999]

Hiya,

Welcome and glad to have ya.

Wow, lots of projects! (That's a good thing) Anyway, without knowing much about your property, I'm gonna give my best shot. (No shooting back, this is all from the hip. )

One thing to take into account is the lay of the land, is it mainly flat, hilly or like mine, a mountain? When you start going up and down hills you will find that a few more HP and bigger tires are nice to have.

That being said, I would look to the CUT size, not the SCUT size. For example, the scut size is 2305 Deere, the BX Kubota, (there are a lot more brands but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head) a CUT size is something along the lines of the 23-2520 or 3x20 Deere, the B/L series Kubota. (again, those are the ones off the top of my head, every company offers CUT size tractors)

You will find that the CUT size offers: (for the most part and it varies with the model of course)
Larger tires
More room
More HP/torque (Pay attention to available PTO HP, Tillers, brush hogs and snowblowers have high HP to width ratios, make sure you have enough HP to run the width you plan on getting )
Higher capacity loaders/3pt
Full cat 1 hitch dimensions and lifting ability
A "real tractor" chassis and heavier duty components.

Along with all these great features, you also get a jump in price. From your list of "requirements" you need a really complete setup, I would say look to these attachments as a minimum:

Loader with tooth bar, Pallet forks and ballast box. (always properly ballast)
Backhoe
York rake w/caster wheels
Box blade
Quick hitch (I think it's a must have)

Optional equipment:
Loader mount plow (driveway, 400' is a long way with a bucket)
Grapple (debris type is less expensive, the rake types are about 3K)
Grader blade w/tilt
Tiller
Brush hog

With with just the minimum config above, a CUT class tractor is going to put you into the high teens to low 30K price range. (Depending on brand/model) The optional list would total anywhere from 3K-ish to over 8K more on top of that. (if you go top of the line Anbo grapple/3K, plow-blower/2K, and tiller/2.5K) Both of these options blow out your budget so you have 2 choices, buy used or buy new but with less accessories and hire out/rent for the stuff you can't do yourself.

Personally, I would stick with the new, (as the price difference between new and quality used is smaller than you think plus new has a dealer standing behind it) hire out/rent for the big stuff and as you need/can afford new stuff, buy it.

After all this rambling, here is what I would suggest:
A CUT in the 2K Lb class with HST transmission, R4 tires. (Ex 2x20 series Deere, B series Kubota, Boomer series NH, there are so many brands, look at every one of them, sit on them, drive them, make sure you fit on them, (for more than 2 minutes) ask questions, get the dealer to let you demo one on your lot, go to different dealers, etc.), Loader w/toothbar bucket, ballast box, box blade, quick hitch, pallet forks and a set of tire chains.

You can do all your tasks with that setup and you should be able to stay in the middle teens with the big three brands (Deere, Kubota and NH), a few K less with the mid tier brands. Add to the implement list as you need/want/can afford and hire out the big stuff.

Plan on being confused with the options you have, take your time, visit different dealers, think down the road 5 years, realize that this process could take you 6 months.

my long winded and rambling 2 cents,

Tom

 

[Egon]

My little Kubota B7100 has to all that you have planned on but the area is 68 acres.

I'd recommend the Kubota B7800 with Backhoe as that is the machine I would like to have.

 

[kozak]

I would have to agree with Tomd999's recommendation. For what you have in mind you will be kicking the snot out of a SCUT. The SCUT will be able to do alot of what you want, it's just when you get to the heavier digging, landscaping & moving / lifting of heavy large rocks.

Note that although you can dig to a certain depth with a FEL (approx 6" to 12") it's not very effective. Would need a backhoe to do any serious digging. To do any serious landscaping, digging etc, you need a heavier tractor.

I am currently using a 35HP tractor that weighs in close to 4,000 lbs when I include my counterweight on the back. The tractor performs beautifully for loader work & plowing. However, I am also right in the middle of a Project of moving large rocks for landscaping. Anywhere from 500 lbs to 6,000 lbs. Well, the capacity of the FEL is no where near what I need for this. So I ended up getting forks for the 3PH. Even here, after I subtract the weight of the forks I can only lift 1,600 lbs. The rock is sandstone so your getting quite a bit of rock for the weight. When you start looking at other rock (especially granite) your only looking at anywhere from 50 to 70% of the rock size for the same weight. So depending upon what kind of rock you have on your property, you may be surprised how heavy it is.

As the big three are priced much higher & generally have less lift capacity & weight, I would strongly consider a Kioti or Mahindra which offer much beefier tractors for the same size & have better lift capacity. The MT265B you were first looking at actually would do you very nicely. You know what they always say, go with your first instincts.

Buying power is always (normally) an issue & granted, implements are more bucks for larger size tractors. But if you go with a little more tractor now, & buy some of the other implements down the road I think you will obviously have a much more capable tractor & be happier in the long run.


Good Luck,

Vic

 

[AndyMA]

As other have said a SCUT is way too small for your tasks. Personally I would go at least 25 if not 30 hp and get a backhoe. Brand would not matter to me. I don't give a hoot about hydro and would easily go without for more tractor. PS I've been on tractors for over 40 years, curently own 3 and have never had a hydro. I used them but to me it is just something that I don't need.

Andy

 

[David Cockey]

Don't get hung up on the arbitray designations of SCUT and CUT. Instead compare the tractors directly including the various specifications. And decide on what's important to you. Bigger is frequently better but not always. Smaller tractors fit into tighter spaces and require less space to store. Lower cost of the tractor can mean more money available for attachments.

We recently compared a Kubota BX2350 (labeled a SCUT) and a Kubota B7510HSD (labeled a CUT). The dealer wanted about $1500 more for the B7510 than for the BX2350. They were surprisingly similar in a many aspects. The B7510 is listed as 7 inches longer, slightly narrower, taller with higher ground clearance, and 77 lbs heavier than the BX2350. I suspect a considerable portion of the weight difference is in the larger tires. The larger diameter tires and higher ground clearance probably make the B7510 more suitable for rough ground. The B7510 also has considerbly greater three point hitch lift capacity and the Front End Loader capacity is somewhat greater than the BX2350.

 

[LBrown59]

In clay I use a tiller to soften up the soil before digging, goes much faster and is easier on the tractor.
.

Exactly one reason why I bought a BX1500 with a front blade and a rear tiller in November of last year.
Now I can push the tilled dirt with the front blade or haul it away with the BX23 FEL depending on what I want to do with the dirt and where it's going.
Also the tilled up fine dirt works much better for landscaping projects.

 

[montanaman]

Don't forget to shop for the dealer as much as you shop for the brand! If you are not limited by space, and it doesn't sound like you are, I would stick with something in the compact size. A sub is nice with a mid mount mower and smaller tasks and many will argue that they can do anything a larger tractor can, but you will spend much more time doing it! In many cases, that isn't a problem for folks that really have the time and enjoy seat time. I'd rather be on a tractor than watching TV. I don't like the word second tier because some think of a second tier as less quality, but you may find you can get more for you money by shopping outside of the big names. Also, find out who actually built it, not who has their name on it! You may find a brand that isn't as well known, but on a component level, is build by very big names and you may find an established brand tractor, is built by someone you never heard of.

Lastly, most folks keep tractors forever so what is more important than the bottom line buying price, is that what you buy will suit your needs and that the cost of ownership, not just purchase, is where you need it to be. A very expensive way to buy a tractor is to have your needs met only when you trade the bad choice in for the right choice!

Best of luck looking,
Ken

 

[ChuckinNH]

Perhaps these pictures will help you visualize what rocks weigh, compared to a sub cut's ability to lift them.

In the first picture, the pile on the left was at the very maximum of what I could lift with the BX22, and the pile on the right are rocks that were comfortably handled by the BX.

In the second picture, the rocks pushed against the stone wall were rocks that I was able to dig out (with patience) with the backhoe, but couldn't lift. They were pushed, or rolled to their resting place.

In the third picture is an elm stump that I dug out with the backhoe in a few hours.... yes, hours. Roots are very tough and an 1" plus root can put up a surprising amount of resistance.

One thing to remember here is that because it is possible to do these things with a sub cut, it has to be done carefully, and it's at the limit of what these machines are capable of. In the long term, you don't want to be using any machine at it's limits. That is why I sold the BX..... it's too tempting to try things that you really should have a bigger machine for. We should strive to look at what is comfortable for a machine to do rather than what it is possible to do with one.

Edit: I added the fourth picture since it shows the largest rocks handled with the loader better.

 

[LBrown59]

There is no such tractor.

 

[Egon]

Now you fellows have gone and embrassed my little Kubota.

The little mule definetly objects on size limitations and insists I show you pictures of rocks that have been moved!

 

[ChuckinNH]

Egon, you have done some nice looking work on your land with that tractor. It sure has moved a lot of rocks! Do you have power steering? There is a B7100 available used locally, and it's a nice looking tractor. That B7800 you like the looks of could get a workout there too!