Bolt on blade for buckets

[ponytug]

This shows a Landpride 4in1 with it's reinforced edge on the front member of the "clamshell". Doesn't look like it would be difficult to retrofit with a cutting edge and a piece of flat iron or simply an "inverted v" piece of angle iron for reinforcement.

Thanks. That should be doable.

If back dragging with the bottom open and using the rear edge sure is going to get bent for sure.... Jim

Yup. That has been my experience. Hence the question on how to strengthen the bucket floor.

It is a fair criticism to say that back dragging the 4N1 bucket with the bucket open is the wrong tool or the wrong way to use the tool for the job; if so, how would you use the bucket to cut, level / grade hard soil? I find forward motion into any of the buckets amplifies the effect of irregularities and a small bump tends to catch the blade and dig in, stalling the tractors motion, and producing a deep cut. Back dragging with the bucket closed just moves loose soil. The PT's box blade has rather small scarifiers, and no way to adjust camber, unlike, say Notch's box blade.

All the best,

Peter

 

[MossRoad]

When you push forward, and push up against something hard, the machine will want to walk up over the FEL arms. When you pull backwards and pull against something hard, the rear tires will tend to lift and put more traction on the front tires. That's why your 4-in-1 set open like that digs in so great when backing up.

You probably already knew that, but I felt like saying it.

It's like a dirt pan being pulled. The more you pull the deeper it wants to go. That's why a box blade with good scarifies with some gauge wheels might be best choice. The pulling will dig in and the gauge wheels will keep it from undulating up and down so much: much better than if it were on a 3pt hitch with no gauge wheels.

 

[ponytug]

Thanks @MossRoad! With your years of experience, any suggestions on an appropriate box blade?

I like the Notch land leveler for its ability to set a camber, but no scarifiers...

I don't really see how to convert the PT box blade to hard surface scarifiers and camber;

Perhaps a solution is a toothed blade on the front of the 4N1 and using it as a back drag to spread/level things, though it leaves setting a camber up to operator skill, instead of the tool, and this operator finds setting camber on narrow roads a challenge.

I have been scarifying with the trencher or rototiller, but neither one is really very good at the dry clay we often have here. In the winter, the soil is soft and often as slick as ice, and then in a few weeks, it is rock hard, so I have a narrow window of "optimal soil working time".

All the best,

Peter

 

[MossRoad]

I do not have a box blade for my PT425. We have mostly sandy soils that are easily smoothed with the bucket. I saw no use for it for our situations and did not think my PT425 would have the traction to pull it with any efficiency in soils that would need scarifies. The PT425 is just too light at 1500#. I did rebuild and maintain several ball diamonds and had trouble pulling a single ripper through the compacted granulated limestone, so I'm guessing my hunch was right on that call.

When I had my large IH2500b (8000# machine) back in the 90's I had a 6' box blade with scarifiers. It ripped great because it was heavy and I had the traction to pull it. However, it was extremely difficult to get smooth results towards the end of the jobs. It took many multiple passes to get things to be smooth VS undulating. That's due to the nature of a 3pt hitch, draft control, varying soil conditions, etc. It was quite frustrating and took many hours to master. Lots of manipulation of the controls and constant attention. I've always thought that if it had gauge wheels, it would have been so much better. It would work completely differently and maintain a much longer plane between the tractor and the gauge wheels. It would fill in the low spots before sinking into them, and cut off the high spots without digging too deep.

One advantage a 3pt setup has, though, is that you can lengthen or shorten one of the leveling arms to get that tilt on the blade. No way to do that on the FEL arms without some sort of contraption.

Don't know how it could be accomplished with gauge wheels unless one of them was on a vertical actuator or cylinder.

Anyhow, lots of things to think about.

 

[npalen]

I do not have a box blade for my PT425. We have mostly sandy soils that are easily smoothed with the bucket. I saw no use for it for our situations and did not think my PT425 would have the traction to pull it with any efficiency in soils that would need scarifies. The PT425 is just too light at 1500#. I did rebuild and maintain several ball diamonds and had trouble pulling a single ripper through the compacted granulated limestone, so I'm guessing my hunch was right on that call.

When I had my large IH2500b (8000# machine) back in the 90's I had a 6' box blade with scarifiers. It ripped great because it was heavy and I had the traction to pull it. However, it was extremely difficult to get smooth results towards the end of the jobs. It took many multiple passes to get things to be smooth VS undulating. That's due to the nature of a 3pt hitch, draft control, varying soil conditions, etc. It was quite frustrating and took many hours to master. Lots of manipulation of the controls and constant attention. I've always thought that if it had gauge wheels, it would have been so much better. It would work completely differently and maintain a much longer plane between the tractor and the gauge wheels. It would fill in the low spots before sinking into them, and cut off the high spots without digging too deep.

One advantage a 3pt setup has, though, is that you can lengthen or shorten one of the leveling arms to get that tilt on the blade. No way to do that on the FEL arms without some sort of contraption.

Don't know how it could be accomplished with gauge wheels unless one of them was on a vertical actuator or cylinder.

Anyhow, lots of things to think about.

Your thoughts on gauge wheels behind a box blade are spot on.

 

[npalen]

The first segment of this video shows shows what, I believe, the OP is doing as a backdragging operation.

 

[ponytug]

The first segment of this video shows shows what, I believe, the OP is doing as a backdragging operation.

Yes, that is what I have been doing, and as the video demonstrates, it is quite effective.

I have never tried using a half open bucket to push though. I look forward to trying it. It should provide a different point of rotation, and by alternating open and closed buckets for pushing, it ought to even out the ground faster. (Differing distances to the center of rotation on the tractor.)

Thanks for sharing the video.

All the best,

Peter

 

[PowerTracManiac]

I share your frustration with the 4 in 1 bucket and hard clay soil.
I bent the bottom of the lower edge of the front section of the blade also by back scraping hard clay soil. Not learning my lesson, I continued backscraping and unevenly loaded the bucket on one side or the other when hitting hard spots, roots, etc. Seeing the bucket twisting under load was no problem for me (haha) until the weld at the left rotating pin broke and the bucket didnt want to open/close properly anymore.
No worries, I was almost done and I just wouldn't back drag anymore. Kept on going and ripped the front section of the bucket off the side rotating pin assembly thereby separating the 2 sections of the bucket.
Well, the party was over at that point.
Realized that I needed teeth to deal with the clay. I had them welded onto the front section of the bucket and repaired the bucket. The teeth were a HUGE improvement to forward digging capability in the clay.
I have modified my method with the 4 in 1 bucket to only cut/dig clay with the front teeth (closed bucket) and not back scrape the hard pack clay with the open bucket.
If you look at the attached video above,, the soil they are working with is VERY soft and the rotating pin assembly is not overly stressed under these conditions. IMHO back scraping hardpack clay places huge torsional stresses on the pin/cylindar rotating assembly as the scraping isn't uniform across the blade. When going forward the entire 4 in 1 bucket front section is loaded and reinforced against the bottom of the back section in the closed clamshell position. In the open/back scrape position only the pins and cylindars support the bucket in the air and take a huge twisting load when back scraping.
Hope my experience will help you in some way.

Your idea of adding a ripping bar to the bottom of the back/vertical section of the bucket is something I also have thought of doing. You would then have a root/rock ripper/dozer blade when the front section of the bucket was opened up and out of the way. I think this would work well.

 

[ponytug]

@PowerTracManiac thanks for sharing your experiences. Given everything shared here, I think that I am leaning toward reinforcing the floor, and putting teeth on the back.

@npalen thanks again for the video; I followed a link from there to a review by YouTuber letsdig18 that brought up a point I hadn't appreciated about skid steers, which is that in the arm down position, the arms hit a stop on the frame, which means the machine's weight and momentum is transferred directly to the bucket. So hitting a patch of hard clay has just the bucket edge and floor channeling the skid steer force in an almost straight line through steel. I now understand better how skid steers cut so well bucket down.

I appreciate the help and advice! Thanks. Lots to learn.

All the best,

Peter

 

[npalen]

@PowerTracManiac thanks for sharing your experiences. Given everything shared here, I think that I am leaning toward reinforcing the floor, and putting teeth on the back.

@npalen thanks again for the video; I followed a link from there to a review by YouTuber letsdig18 that brought up a point I hadn't appreciated about skid steers, which is that in the arm down position, the arms hit a stop on the frame, which means the machine's weight and momentum is transferred directly to the bucket. So hitting a patch of hard clay has just the bucket edge and floor channeling the skid steer force in an almost straight line through steel. I now understand better how skid steers cut so well bucket down.

I appreciate the help and advice! Thanks. Lots to learn.

All the best,

Peter

Yes, I recall seeing a video of a skidsteer doing laser grading where they actually added brackets to hold the skidsteer boom tight against the stop on the frame then used the bucket tilt to control the depth of cut.

So its interesting that even a skidsteer as short coupled and sturdy as the boom is can benefit from additional "security". Compare that to a loader where the boom with the bucket on the ground will still have some stroke left in the boom cylinders coupled with the fact that there will be some flex in the boom. Makes it difficult to control cutting depth precisely.

Perhaps the rear member of the 4in1 can be used as a "skid" to control cutting depth of the front bucket when backdragging?

Guess we're going to have to mount some gauge wheels on that 4in1.

Edit: My Landpride 4in1 is modified slightly so it can also be used on the 3Ph with hydro top link. All this 4in1 talk makes me want to do some grading with it in "back drag" mode. I thought the method in the earlier video of backdragging a pile then closing the clamshell was a fairly efficient method of moving material.