Bridge Questions

[tlj87]

I'd let the foot bridge remain & use large culverts covered with concrete for vehicles. Culverts will be the cheapest and easiest to build & done right they look pretty cool.

Keep in mind if/when you have such a big flood that it floods that field you will have no approach to a raised traditional type bridge anyway. We have a creek to cross to our place, 35' bank to bank. The country replaced our old steel I-beam bridge with a new concrete one a few years ago. The pasture will go under water 2-3' deep one one side so we just have to sit back and wait until the water recedes, usually half a day or so.

Very true about not being able to use the bridge during very high water events. The previous owner shot this footage in, I believe, 1997. This is the highest I have ever seen the creek. And It Rained for 40 Days and 40 Nights - YouTube

Luckily, there is another way out that does not involve crossing the creek, it just takes a while to walk or drive and is impractical for routine access.

 

[dave1949]

Yikes! I am amazed the foot bridge survived that. And I was thinking from your earlier pics that the stream never got too wild--judging from the banks LOL.

 

[EddieWalker]

Having seen that video, I have to say that you realy might want to reconsider living there, or putting any money into a bridge. It will flood like that again. That is guranteed. Do you want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that isn't going to last? How many times will that happen in your lifetime? It would be foolish to think it's not going to happen, so how many times will you build a bridge or a road to the bridge?

There is a place in CA not to far from where I'm from called the Russian River. Every coupld of years the river floods and destroys a bunch of houses. They make the news, they get all sorts of sympathy, and they all rebuild again. Then it happens again and the cycle continues. It's either a mind set, or just plain crazy, but some places you just shouldn't live or invest large somes of money.

Eddie

 

[dave1949]

Yeah, I noticed that the flood water looked a bit close for comfort to the open-sided shed, which I guess is on one side of the existing house. Is the house in a flood plain zone for insurance purposes? I suppose you don't have to worry about ice dams in a stream, that would add even more risk.

If more extreme weather events are part of the future, then the likelihood of a repeat is increased, besides noting that what happens once, will probably happen again.

It is a very pretty setting.

 

[MJ's Design guide]

How did I become an expert on this question is beyond me, but you need a structural and a civil engineer. And you are looking at a major expense.

 

[MotorSeven]

Yep, that looks exactly like my pasture(s) after heavy rains. The bridge would become an island, so it might as well be culverts submerged during those flood times.

 

[tlj87]

Yeah, I noticed that the flood water looked a bit close for comfort to the open-sided shed, which I guess is on one side of the existing house. Is the house in a flood plain zone for insurance purposes? I suppose you don't have to worry about ice dams in a stream, that would add even more risk.

If more extreme weather events are part of the future, then the likelihood of a repeat is increased, besides noting that what happens once, will probably happen again.

It is a very pretty setting.

The "shed" in the video (a 4-bunk cabin w/ kitchen on stilts) is on the same side of the creek as all the buildings. All other buildings, including the "house" and barn are not in the floodplain. There is about a 60' difference in elevation between the creek and the rest of the structures.

Fortunately, there has never been any damage to the bridge (inc. pilings) due to flooding. I am not saying that it can't/won't happen. For the most part, the creek bank is stable along the stream (there is about 2/3 mi of the creek on my property). Unfortunately, the previous owner removed a lot of the shrubs, trees etc. along the banks which we have been replanting with the assistance of the County Conservation District to be proactive in preventing future erosion, improve habitat, etc.

Here is another brief video showing part of the driveway with a glimpse of the 'house'. You can get a better idea of the topography as well as what the ford is like. Driveway - YouTube

 

[dave1949]

The "shed" in the video (a 4-bunk cabin w/ kitchen on stilts) is on the same side of the creek as all the buildings. All other buildings, including the "house" and barn are not in the floodplain. There is about a 60' difference in elevation between the creek and the rest of the structures.

Fortunately, there has never been any damage to the bridge (inc. pilings) due to flooding. I am not saying that it can't/won't happen. For the most part, the creek bank is stable along the stream (there is about 2/3 mi of the creek on my property). Unfortunately, the previous owner removed a lot of the shrubs, trees etc. along the banks which we have been replanting with the assistance of the County Conservation District to be proactive in preventing future erosion, improve habitat, etc.

Here is another brief video showing part of the driveway with a glimpse of the 'house'. You can get a better idea of the topography as well as what the ford is like. Driveway - YouTube

Ah, I see. That leaves just the stream to worry about and not the house at all. Beautiful setting. I'm sure you will figure out the best crossing method. Good on you for replanting.

 

[medic0648]

Using a flat railcar with proper abutments and tied down. Would work well and can be surprisingly economical considering the 100k+ lb capacity of them as well as being 8-9ft wide. There is a thread on here where someone I think in pa or wv used 1.

 

[CurlyDave]

Looking at that video was really an eye-opener for me.

You not only need a bridge, abutments, and approaches, you also need a plan for inspection of these structures after a high water event.

The bridge may look perfectly sound after a flood, but could collapse under you & your vehicle from hidden damage. Be sure your engineer considers this problem also.

I strongly suspect you could put in a new well and septic on the road side of the stream for much less investment than a proper bridge will cost. A new house will be nicer and less costly than renovating the existing one.

 

[tlj87]

Looking at that video was really an eye-opener for me.

You not only need a bridge, abutments, and approaches, you also need a plan for inspection of these structures after a high water event.

The bridge may look perfectly sound after a flood, but could collapse under you & your vehicle from hidden damage. Be sure your engineer considers this problem also.

I strongly suspect you could put in a new well and septic on the road side of the stream for much less investment than a proper bridge will cost. A new house will be nicer and less costly than renovating the existing one.

Based on rough cost estimates from the area, I estimate $25k for septic and $5k for a well. Probably in the neighborhood of $200k for the the home plus upkeep on the structures and systems on the other side of the creek.

I am curious as to what your opinion would be on a vented ford such as this which is designed to be flooded. Culvert Case Studies > Rocky Creek

 

[MotorSeven]

$25K for a septic? Holeey Scmoleey mine was under $3K installed......wow

 

[dodge man]

I'm a land surveyor and work for a civil engineering company. Two important things to look at. One is what should the design be for in terms of a flood event. Can you live with it being flooded out once a year, once every ten years, once every 25 years? Just looking at the videos, it looks like some kind of culvert or culverts would be the route to go. It also looks like the road needs to be built up on either side of the creek so it doesn't flood either. My guess any design will have to allow for overtopping during a major flood event or the cost will get crazy. Like others have said, you need a civil engineer, and maybe or maybe not a structural engineer. A lot of firms do both.

 

[RedNeckRacin]

Structural engineer would only be good for the bridge. You need a civil period. Let me reiterate; a properly LICENSED PROFESSIONAL engineer in the state of Pennsylvania. Be prepared to hear what you don’t want to hear. We can speculate all you want about ideas and ways to get around issues. Your main hurdle is going to be the Pennsylvania department of environmental protection. (I can think of at least two permits off hand that will be needed) You’re also going to get tangled up with the Army Corps of Engineers. Unless you absolutely have your heart set on this and you have money and a lot of time to burn. I'd suggest leaving it as a hunting cabin/fun area and not a permanent residence.

If you are really serious about doing it, you need to look into what permits are required BEFORE you start spending money. They can be a huge headache and your problems only compound due to it being in a flowing water body. To lightly dismiss them is foolhardy at best.


On a less serious note, we will gladly help you spend your money you do or don't have and more! :thumbsup: I think almost every member on this forum loves a good challenge and enjoys figuring out creative solutions to unusual problems.

P.S. even if your "not in the stream" if you do ANY work inside the high water mark of the water (and maybe even the flood plain I suspect) you need multiple permits. The high-water mark is also not where you say it is. The agencies will surely tell you where it is.

 

[dave1949]

I wonder what you may do with the existing 1962 vehicle ford, that may be grandfathered for permit purposes?

How usable is the existing ford? Can you cross it with a regular car, or is a pickup needed? How many days in an average year would you guess it is unusable?

Judging from the replies, I would carefully consider if it is a problem that really HAS to have a solution. You can schedule deliveries like propane, keep a UPS/Fedex drop box and mailbox on the road side of the stream, etc. If the alternative entry to the house part of the property is passable by emergency vehicles, that may be good enough, or much cheaper to improve than tackling the stream.

 

[MotorSeven]

For many of you this is a big deal. For us, some winters we get as many as a dozen floods. Some are bad, some not so much. When the approach to the county bridge goes under water we just sit tight until the water recedes, usually about 4-5 hours. The cost involved in raising the approach road is cost prohibitive & the County will not do it. Remember you can't just raise the road, you also have to place many more culverts under said road to allow the water to escape or a big **** is the result and property up stream would flood(like my shop). A culvert bridge here only requires a permit, no blueprints or structural engineers.

Here is my video shot today:
[video]http://s271.beta.photobucket.com/user/motorseven/media/Farm/Jan2013Flood_zpsf93fe375.mp4.html[/video]

Ha, that was not a curse word, it is the thing that beavers build, or humans like the Hoover daaaam:laughing:

 

[RedNeckRacin]

For many of you this is a big deal. For us, some winters we get as many as a dozen floods. Some are bad, some not so much. When the approach to the county bridge goes under water we just sit tight until the water recedes, usually about 4-5 hours. The cost involved in raising the approach road is cost prohibitive & the County will not do it. Remember you can't just raise the road, you also have to place many more culverts under said road to allow the water to escape or a big **** is the result and property up stream would flood(like my shop). A culvert bridge here only requires a permit, no blueprints or structural engineers.

Here is my video shot today:
[video]http://s271.beta.photobucket.com/user/motorseven/media/Farm/Jan2013Flood_zpsf93fe375.mp4.html[/video]

No offese, but I very seriously doubt you can get away with just a single permit when you disturb a stream bottom. Usually you can't just deal with a state agency, the feds gotta get their cut to. In PA I gurantee there will be multiple permits involved from multiple agencies. You can certainly take your chances, but the penalities are pretty steep.

 

[MotorSeven]

It's only one permit here and it is the Feds via USDA.

 

[Localmotion]

Here is another brief video showing part of the driveway with a glimpse of the 'house'. You can get a better idea of the topography as well as what the ford is like. Driveway - YouTube

I don't know where to start with your bridge project - but it sure looks like a nice place to get stranded

 

[tlj87]

The existing ford is in good condition with a solid bottom and approaches. The water depth May-October is typically 3-5" and can be crossed by car. November-April varies more, perhaps 12" on average. Still passable with a truck, but I do not like to cross during freezing weather and then letting a vehicle sit. At one time (sometime prior to 1939, based on old aerial imagery) there was a dam or some other structure spanning the creek near the ford/bridge site. There are two railroad ties in the bank at two locations, one near the ford. As a general rule of thumb, if the water level is over the railroad tie, then we usually don't cross.

In terms of permitting, I have a call into my local conservation district office who, according their website, handles the permitting. They have been on site previously and organized the streambank planting project (which we'll be continuing this spring). A "GENERAL PERMIT BDWM-GP-7 MINOR ROAD CROSSINGS" is what seems to be required. This is through the DEP. Here is a link to the PA Code re: Permits for Bridges and Culverts. http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/025/chapter105/s105.151.html