Bringing the draft back ???

fivestring · Apr 20, 2004

"With the exception of President Reagan of course." 

And he left with Alzheimer's disease! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
It's not a job that I would want.

"It is easy to play armchair president" 

Monday morning quarterbacks are the worst form of information that the news networks can brainwash people with. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

It's all about power.

cowboydoc · Apr 20, 2004

Let me share something I just recieved. I think we should listen more to the soldiers coming home rather than to the media.

As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I
>wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a
> very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that
>I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back
>home. And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq
> that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the
> list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your
> friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing)
>
> -Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
>ever in Iraq.
> -Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.
> -Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that
>were stored there so education can occur.
> -The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from
>ships faster.
> -School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
> -The country had it's first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
> -The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war
> -100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35% before the war.
> -Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are in place.
> -Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
> -Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
> -Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
> -Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
> -Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
> -Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
> -An interim constitution has been signed.
> -Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.
> -Text books that don't mention ****** are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.
> Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have
> met many many people from Iraq that want us there and in a bad way. They
> say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their
> children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone,
> anywhere to dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John
> Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa.
> This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted
> with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a
> friend and let them know there are good things happening.

fivestring · Apr 20, 2004

Thank you, Richard, for sharing that.

OkeeDon · Apr 20, 2004

That's all wonderful. It does not explain why we have had to pay over 600 lives, over 3,000 wounded, and over $100 Billion to accomplish it. The question is not whether we are doing good, it is why are we there in the first place? The reasons given for going before we invaded have all turned out to be incorrect and misleading, if not outright lies.

Now that we are there, we have no choice but to complete the job, at almost any cost, because all of the alternatives are far worse. But, that still begs the questions of, why now? And, why Iraq, when many other countries are in far worse shape? Are we to invade them all, at similar costs, in order to straighten out the rest of the world? What about the problems we have in our own country? Wouldn't that money have been better spent, here, before we fix Iraq's problems?

Since your post mentioned Kerry, let me simply say that everyone should be asking these basic questions, and considering whether an administration that put us in this position should be allowed to continue in the job. What will they do to us next?

Whether we are doing good in Iraq or not is not the question. Whether we should have ever been there in the first place is the only question that matters. Keeping it on topic, it looks like the latest result of this fiasco is that we may have to bring back the draft in order to get enough bodies.

Boondox · Apr 20, 2004

Richard and Don -- It looks like the membership, like the nation as a whole, has been polarized by this issue and this presidency. Yet I continue to be amazed at how civil we TBNers remain as we agree to disagree!
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Pete

OkeeDon · Apr 20, 2004

Well, we're all tractor owners, of course, or at least interested in tractors, but more importantly we are all Americans -- with the welcome inclusion of our friends from other nations, of course. Our differences are mainly those of perspective.

For example, I understand and agree with everything Richard posted. My difference is from the perspective of whether that is the important question, or not. As long as we can air our differences without personal attack, I think it's a healthy thing. Perhaps Richard's perspective will cause some of those who believe we should pull out of Iraq to reconsider. In that, we are in complete agreement. Perhaps my perspective will cause some of those who believe we are in Iraq to defend our freedom, or because Iraq was a threat to us, to reconsider, as well. Perhaps not. I, for one, will not disrespect anyone whose perspective is different than mine. We all have more things in common than we have differences. I'm saddened by the polarization, but I'm grateful that we resolve these differences at the ballot box, and then get on with tractoring.

Egon · Apr 20, 2004

Well said.

Egon

Henro · Apr 20, 2004

You know, something I have gradually come to realize is that I see more clearly when I close my ears.

Funny that the ears can confuse issues so much. I have come to realize that they certainly do. After growing up hearing stories of propaganda influencing the thinking of “those poor souls living under communist rule” I now see that we also are fed a line frequently as well. It is sometimes so easy to take what is said in this country as gospel and use it as a basis for our own framework of beliefs.

This relates to this thread as well as things like gray market or Chinese tractors, VS the big tractor manufacturers. In the end a tractor is a tractor. If it runs and is dependable, it is a good tractor. Color doesn’t matter, until it breaks. Then it is less good. Yet, some would lead one to believe that the big three (plus some others) are somehow vastly superior to other less known brands. This is not always the case. But many believe it is the case.

So I can’t help but wonder why a free country should need a draft. If the people support what the leaders are doing, the people should be more than happy to do their duty. If a country has to force its population into uniform, to maintain an aggressive posture, what is this really telling us?

This is in contrast to Switzerland, which has had a draft for decades, but is not an aggressive nation.

By the way, I have given up on adding the draft system on my tractor. Upon further analysis it was determined that it would not function well as a counterweight for the loader as it would keep getting lighter, and the rate of weight change would be unpredictable, dependent upon how many TBN buddies visit.

Come to think of it, I think I just realized a way to help make the world a better place. Just have to close my mouth! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Mission accomplished as far as this thread goes. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif [being the weakling I am, I’ll still read it though]

BIGUN · Apr 20, 2004

( I have stayed out of this as long as I can. Do you realize how many of "The Guard" and Reserve are in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. Do you know how many have died doing some low risk job? How about PFC Whitmer of the Wisconsin National Guard. She has two sisters that are in the process of deciding if they will go back after their sisters death. I think is says volumes about them that they didn't going running to the first reporter they saw to exclaim they wouldn't go back. I guess you think "The Guard" is serving ice cream or cleaning toilets over there or as you put it, "a low risk involvement". No there are Engineers, MP's, and other HIGH RISK duties that the Guard and Reserve are doing over there. I should know next month whether I will be going in November. I hope all the low risk jobs aren't taken. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif )

Brent,

No offense to you or anyone else that is in “The Guard” was intended. My reference was not to the role “The Guard” plays in today’s military but how it was during the Vietnam era when the draft was a reality. If you are in “The Guard” now you are probably not old enough to remember how that was.

In those days a young man just turning 19 years old had the following choices:

1. Join a branch of the military and take your chances on going to Vietnam or request to go if that was your thing.
2. Wait to be drafted, go to Vietnam and take your chances.
3. Be a conscientious objector.
4. Stay in college and maintain your grades or else see #2.(This was eliminated after a system to draw birth dates in order to assign each young man turning 19 years old a number, 1 thru 365. Those with a number lower than 250 were likely candidates to be drafted and go to Vietnam.)
5. Move to Canada and be a fugitive (until all was forgiven).
6. Join “The Guard” including “The Coast Guard”. If my memory serves me, I don’t think your chances of going to Nam were very great while serving in either of these. I lot of guys considered one of these alternatives preferable to any of those listed above. They could serve but at a much lower risk than being on the front lines in Vietnam. The problem was, there was a LONG waiting list to get in, and you might be drafted while waiting. Those of power and privilege moved to the head of this line.

The military did not need to utilize “The Guard” to the extent it does today because they had a virtually unlimited supply of conscripts at their disposal.

This is what I remember from 30 something years ago. Anyone feel free to jump in and correct any inaccuracies. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tractors4u · Apr 20, 2004

( My reference was not to the role “The Guard” plays in today’s military but how it was during the Vietnam era )

I do hope you are sincere in the statement above because in you comment below you are speaking in the present tense about the National Guard.

( Since rich people of privilege have connections in high places, their kids still won’t have to serve, or if they do, it will be “the guard” or some other low risk involvement. )

 It is amazing the perceptions some people have about the National Guard and the Reserve components, Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines.

I went to regular Army Basic Training, I went to OCS, I have to qualify with my weapon to the same standard as Active Duty, my Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) is the same standard. For my career progression my promotion packet goes before a Department of the Army board and I have to be selected there before it even goes to a state level board. We do have some abbreviated schools that shorten the length but the material is crammed in none the less. When I got back from basic training I actually had someone tell me they were surprized that I had to go since I was in the Guard. They really don't have a clue. We are expected to be proficient at our jobs even though we only practice them 2 days a month and 2 weeks a year. Most of that 2 day period is taken up with administrative details. One of the hardest parts is shifting gears between civilian job and part time Army.

We have some really dedicated soldiers in the part time Army and we have some dead beats. The active have dead beats but they also have the UCMJ, Article 15's and the stockade that they use to cull their nuts. In the Guard the more dedicated ones are the ones who own their own businesses and lose money when they are there on the weekends or the two weeks. Or they flat out risk having their business go down the tubes if they get activated.

One last thing before I do a PLF off of my soapbox. For those that whine and cry saying that they joined the military for the college money and no one told them they might get activated. If it were up to me they could go to supply and turn their gear in. I joined 15 years ago and even then, before the first Iraq war, the recruiter told me that we could get activated. When I went for my physical and was sworn in they reinforced that fact! You are a big boy or big girl, do your duty to best of your ability and quit crying. 

( The military did not need to utilize “The Guard” to the extent it does today because they had a virtually unlimited supply of conscripts at their disposal.
)

One more little tidbit concerning the need for the Guard during Vietnam. I don't know how many Guard units went to Vietnam but the Guard unit I enlisted in and stayed with until it's deactivation was an Engineer battalion. It was activated during the Korean war and recieved a Presidential Unit Citation. The 1343d EN Bn.