Build A Pond?

   / Build A Pond? #1  

ctpres

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
324
Location
BAR BOB Ranch, Needville Texas
Tractor
Kubota 3400HST
Thinking about building a pond. Will be below current grade and be filled with heavy rain runoff from about 20 acres. Many other ponds already in area hold water nicely. Only one or two tend to dry up in summer. No special plans for fish or anything else as this low land is subject to flooding (three times in twenty years). Just for looks and adding to resale value. Have 35 hp HST with loader and am thinking about making passes with subsoiler to loosen things up and then just moving dirt to high ground with FEL. May ask Head Honcho for pond scoop for Xmas to increase dirt carrying capacity per trip if your comments support one. Low budget operation and lots of time. Just thinking and need advise. I can be talked into or outa this project.
 
   / Build A Pond? #2  
How big will it be? Digging the pond is the easy part, moving the dirt is where it takes all the time. If you don't get discouraged and are willing to spend hundreds of hours on your tractor going back and forth several thousand times, maybe more, then it's very doable.

Things to consider.

Depth of the pond. The deeper it is, the more water it will hold and the less likely that it will dry up.

The steeper the bank, the quicker it gets deep, the fewer weeds that will grow along the shoreline.

You really need at least four feet of water to keep it a pond. Anything less and you have a marsh. Not that a marsh is a bad thing, but for resale and aesthetics, open water is the most attractive.

When spreading the dirt, do it in shallow lifts for compaction. Don't just dump the dirt and keep piling more dirt on top of it. spread it out over a large area and very slowly build it up. Every time you drive over it, try to create fresh tracks in areas that you have not driven before. This will compact the soil real nicely and give you a solid dam, levy or hill.

If this sounds like more then you were expecting, figure out what it would cost you to run your tractor for ten hours in fuel. Multiply that by how much dirt you can dig and move in that amount of time and figure out how much you need to move. My guess is that it's going to be allot of money in just fuel because you will only be able to move a small amount of dirt at a time.

I dug a 3/4 acre pond with my full sized loader backhoe. It took me two months, almost 7 days a week to dig it down 4 to five feet with two areas that were 8 ft deep. I gave up on trying to put the dirt where I wanted it and just dumped it along the side of the pond to beat the rains. Then I spent the rest of the winter and part of the spring getting rid of that dirt pile. My bucket holds just over a yard of dirt, and I spent close to a thousand hours doing it this way.

When you get an idea of how much money you will spend, a clue on how many hours it might take, triple that number. This is what it will cost you to do it.

Now consider what it would cost to have it done with a D6 sized dozer. Don't mess around with anything smaller, they are too slow and cost just as much money to hire. A D6 sized dozer is just under 40,000 pounds and with the right blade, can push 6 yards of dirt at a time. What he can do in a week will take you all year. A bigger dozer would be faster, but they jump in price and take special permits just to move them from job to job.

Pond Boss Magazine Home Page! is a good site for more info, but most of those guys are more into the fish part of the ponds and not building them. Some have tractors and do some of their own work, and one of the moderators, Otto, is a contractor the builds ponds for a living here in Texas.

HeavyEquiptmentForums.Com is a good site for bigger tractors and the professionals who operate them. Some of the guys there dig ponds all the time and are very helpful in what it takes to get it done, the proper technique and tool for the job.

No job is too big to tackle on your own.

Good luck,
Eddie
 
   / Build A Pond? #3  
One thought that jumped to mind is culvert sizing. Make sure that you have an adequately sized outflow culvert, if you aren't planning a spillway. 20 acres in flat country requires an 18 to 36 inch culvert, depending on soil conditions. Do upfront planning to make sure that sedimentation doesn't block the culvert.
 
   / Build A Pond? #4  
You're talking about something that will take a lot of time, but it can certainly be done. Instead of using a subsoiler and moving dirt with the front end loader and a scoop, I'd want a box blade with scarifiers (ripper teeth) so I could loosen the dirt, and drag a box full at a time to wherever I wanted to lift the box blade to dump the dirt all in one operation.

By the time I typed a little short answer, two others were posted. And of course Eddie has lots of practical experience and knows what he's talking about.
 
   / Build A Pond? #5  
Let's do some math. A 1/4 acre pond would be approximately 100' x 100' and at least 8' deep. 100 x 100 x 8 = 80,000 cubic feet. Divided by 27 to give cubic yards yields 2,962 cubic yards of dirt. Of course, that is compacted dirt. When you start moving it, it will "grow." Now, let's say your tractor can haul 1/2 yard in each bucket (probably more like 1/3 with your Kubota). You are talking about a minimum of 6,000 loads of dirt and probably closer to 8,000 in reality.

I don't think you will get anywhere near 50 loads per day by the time you dig it, haul it, and spread it, but lets say you do work full days. That's 160 days or close to 5-1/2 months of work. At the end of this, you and your tractor will be pretty tired.

In my opinion, $4000 to $5000 would be a bargain to pay someone to come in and do the digging. Then, I'd spend my time cleaning up and making it look like I wanted. Believe me, I have experience in doing that and it takes a lot of time to just clean up the job after the dozer.

So, just know what you are getting into. If you want something smaller, do the math and be realistic in your estimates. If you have time and want to do it, go for it.
 
   / Build A Pond? #6  
My father had a large pond dug back on our old farm right after I moved out.
He got a deal from the DNR where they paid for some of the project for wildlife habitat. You might want to check into this if it is still an option.
 
   / Build A Pond? #7  
I don't think you will get anywhere near 50 loads per day by the time you dig it, haul it, and spread it, but lets say you do work full days. That's 160 days or close to 5-1/2 months of work. At the end of this, you and your tractor will be pretty tired.
.


50 loads a DAY??? You must get paid by the hour and not the job! 30-40 loads an HOUR is more like it if he is moving the dirt 200' each way. Teeth on the bucket, maximum weight on the back end, loaded tires and wheel weights will turn it into a digging machine. Need to run in M range and learn to USE the machine. I was averaging 45-50 loads an hour with a 200+ foot travel distance over a 8 hour day.

Learning how to:
smooth a thin ribbon of dirt into the bucket and get a full load every time,
do the above with out rutting up the ground by spinning the tires,
raise the bucket to transport height,
do the above while backing up or traveling to the dump spot,
travel at the maximum speed w/o spilling,
smooth the travel path ONLY as needed,
dump the load while moving (not even slowing down),
positioning the bucket for the next cut while traveling back,
repeating that mind numbing cycle for 8 hours without stop or slowing down.

If you have a cut through technique, where you dig going N/S, and when the bucket is full keep moving N and dump on the N side. Then come back digging S/N and keep moving S and dump on the S side. A short U-turn loop moving forward is faster than backing up and changing direction. A HEAVY box blade on the back in smoothing mode used on every 10-20 passes to smooth the ground to keep travel speed up.

I can get 350-400 buckets in an 8 hour day and am really happy to stop at the end of the day!

Cost is 7-9 gal of fuel, maint costs, tire wear, fluid wear, etc. Figure actual is 3x fuel. So, 70 ish bucks a day at current fuel prices. Result would be moving and spreading out 70-120 cu yd of spoils using a 1/3 yd bucket. Depends on the soil friendliness to digging and loader operator competence.

At the end of the excavation, you wil then start cutting the edges down so the pond is no longer shallow entrance and exit. Than mean you will lose time and productivity. That is about the last 1/3 of the dig.

Dang, I just realized that it probably works out to a real honest 1$ per cu yd moved - exactly as Eddie W stated in a different thread. Ouch, I didn't need to realize how much I've spent playing in the dirt.
 
   / Build A Pond?
  • Thread Starter
#8  
WOW you guys sure know how to put a pencil to an idea. But then that's why I ask the "Experts." I am looking at maybe 1/4 to 1/2 acre at the most. With your help and my fuzzy math it looks like 4,000 trips on the low side. With trips being the key to this project I'd better spend more time thinking about this one.
 
   / Build A Pond? #9  
Another problem that comes up with this type of project is water. If the area for the pond is receiving enough run off to support a pond you will most likely be working in mud for much of the time it will take to move that much dirt.

Another option would be to rent a decent size excavator to dig from the sides and then spend tractor time to move the dirt after the rental.

MarkV
 
   / Build A Pond? #10  
CTPRES:

We are in the excavating business, among other things, - - - - - hire someone who builds ponds and knows what he is doing!!!!!!! Don't try it on your own!!!!!!! Even without knowing much about your situation, there are many things to consider, design of primary spillway, secondary spillway, compaction, regulatory requirements, safety (moving that much material with that type of equipment takes time, time results in fatigue, fatigue may lead to mistakes), etc., etc.

Our farm is in Ohio, and it has to be easier to build a pond in Texas than in the hill country of Ohio. However, I find it amazing that people talk about building a pond for a few thousand dollars and in a few days. That is probably possible in the ideal location, but it isn't the case in instances. In fact, I often wonder if those people have ever built a pond. Or, did the build a mud hole?

For example, last year I built a pond on my farm with OUR employees and OUR equipment (750 JD dozer, 850 JD dozer, 160 JD excavator and a BOMAG for compaction). We had to construct a deep pond due to the lay of the land (ended up 17-18 feet deep) and it wasn't a dug pond like you would probably have. It was an impoundment with a dam. Quality fishing was important to us so we built structure and did a few extras. In the end, the pond was a little over an acre in size, we moved the 750 dozer and the excavator in on August 9. We took the 850 over two weeks later after the grub work and key were well under way. I pulled the equipment out the first week of November with a total cost of $65,000 - - - - and keep in mind that we owned the equipment and paid the employees thier regular hourly rate. In the end, we had approximately $ 30,000 in diesel fuel - - - the 850 alone burns 100 gallons of fuel a day.

I would think two or three times before I started to build any pond with a compact tractor. Just my two cents.
 
   / Build A Pond? #11  
- - - the 850 alone burns 100 gallons of fuel a day.

That's allot of fuel. My Case 1550 is about the same size as your 850, but burns half that amount of fuel. I have a 75 gallon tank on it and can run it two days, all day long. It has a Cummins 8.3 turbo diesel engine that I rebuilt, so maybe that's part of the difference. New engine runs stronger and uses less fuel?

I didn't run my every day, or all day long while digging my 4 acre pond, but was going through 600 gallons a month, give or take, when digging my pond. One month I bought 800 gallons and a few months I only bought 400 gallons. Fuel is only part of it, I also have leaks in my hydraulic lines that are a constant battle trying to find and fix. As a result, I go through 4 to 6 five gallon buckets of hydraulic oil a month too!!! That's a huge expense that I shouldn't have to spend, but finding and fixing those leaks is not as simple as most people might expect. The ones I'm still looking for only happen under high pressure and under heavy loads. The other times that it leaks is while sitting without running. Both are times that I've been unable to find the source.

Do you have the Sundstrand hydraulic pumps on your 850? I'm told that we share the same pumps, but don't know this first hand. Mine is a 1989 hydrostatic drive.

Eddie
 
   / Build A Pond? #12  
I can get 350-400 buckets in an 8 hour day and am really happy to stop at the end of the day!

There you go, ctpres. Hire JB and sit back and watch him go, go, go.:D

Yes, I was very conservative in my estimate of how many loads you would do in a days time, but I don't figure you will spend all your time going like gang-busters. Some days you will work 2 hours and some you will work 12, but if your soil is rocky or has a lot of clay, I'd plan on setting aside lots of time. The first loads go quickly. Then you have to start dealing with all those spoils and contouring your dam. That's when you and your tractor will start feeling like you're emptying the ocean with a thimble.;)
 
   / Build A Pond? #13  
I got a free pond enlargement when the county needed fill for roadbed elevating project down the road from us. They brought in a huge LinkBelt track hoe and a convoy of dump trucks, and in a day or two my pond went from 1/2 to 1 acre.

Check out local needs for fill, maybe you can get part of it done for free. Don't wear your tractor out on this though, it's not cost/time effective. I can cut all of my firewood with a hand saw but the chainsaw is better adapted to the work.
 
   / Build A Pond? #14  
Two of the three that I have where cost share projects with the USDA. Check with your local Soil and Concervation Dept. to see if there are any programs available.
 
   / Build A Pond? #15  
When we built a pond a few years back (about 50yds by 40 yds) we got a local guy with a shovel and he dug it 14 feet deep in a weekend. It is in a low spot and has an inflow and outflow to the river. Cost --- less than $2000:).
Seems to me if the pond is going to cost a fortune, you might want to assess the value it adds to the property.:eek:
I don't think your tractor is a practical way to do it. If I were doing it again the one thing I would do differently is push the topsoil of with a dozer and then dig as we could always use the topsoil in a number of other places.
JMHO
regards
Steve
 
   / Build A Pond? #16  
Cost --- less than $2000:).

I don't know how many years back that was, but this year they charged in my area $1.85 per yard and 2 years ago it was $1.60 per yard. The USDA after you show them where and about how big they then calculate the yardage. Hire the contractor and build a pond. 2 years ago we put in a large pond at a cost of $7500 with the cost share being 75% paid by them, this years project was $3700 with 50% paid by them.

If I am correct, the dam on the water side is 3 to 1 slope and the back side is 4 to 1 when you use the programs you really get a super good looking project.
 
   / Build A Pond? #17  
Three years ago -- but none of the dirt was moved any further than the reach of the shovel as he could basically use it to fill the rest of the low spot and then drive over it to pack it down -- and I am sure I got a bargain:p
Like they say in real estate -- location, location ,location:D
 
   / Build A Pond? #18  
That's allot of fuel. My Case 1550 is about the same size as your 850, but burns half that amount of fuel. I have a 75 gallon tank on it and can run it two days, all day long. It has a Cummins 8.3 turbo diesel engine that I rebuilt, so maybe that's part of the difference. New engine runs stronger and uses less fuel?

I didn't run my every day, or all day long while digging my 4 acre pond, but was going through 600 gallons a month, give or take, when digging my pond. One month I bought 800 gallons and a few months I only bought 400 gallons. Fuel is only part of it, I also have leaks in my hydraulic lines that are a constant battle trying to find and fix. As a result, I go through 4 to 6 five gallon buckets of hydraulic oil a month too!!! That's a huge expense that I shouldn't have to spend, but finding and fixing those leaks is not as simple as most people might expect. The ones I'm still looking for only happen under high pressure and under heavy loads. The other times that it leaks is while sitting without running. Both are times that I've been unable to find the source.

Do you have the Sundstrand hydraulic pumps on your 850? I'm told that we share the same pumps, but don't know this first hand. Mine is a 1989 hydrostatic drive.

Eddie

Eddie:

Good news and bad news. Good news: I am the financial end of the operation and know for certain the 850s burn 100 gallons a day on average. It can vary sum between operators and how hard they are working, but we usually keep the better operators on the 850s so they get a lot out of them every day. Also keep in mind that in our area we have to move dirt from daylight to dark when the weather permits. Last summer we had five 850s and they probably run 10 to 12 hours a day in the summer.

Bad news: I am the financial end of the company and could tell you what type of pump is on the 850s for love nor money.

I do know a little more than I let on about operations, and I know for certain that my wife wanted a pond in spot "x" and we had to build one there even though it was a badddddddddddd spot to build a pond. Oh well she and my daughter love it so it was worth it.
 
   / Build A Pond? #19  
typo should say could not tell you for love nor money.
 
   / Build A Pond? #20  
Eddie:

Read your message again. In our situation I don't think a new engine has anything to do with it. All of our 850s are new by diesel standars - less than 2000 hours on all of them, and I think less than 1000 on three of them.
 

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