Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please!

   / Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please! #41  
You are making a big decision and I think you need more advice. I've built several custom houses and a good HVAC system is critical. Depends on where you are, and the cost of fuel and electricity. Here in KY where electricity has been relatively inexpensive, I went for 2 systems, for a 4000ft house. Heat pumps 18 seer with propane backup under 35 degrees. A big concern is the duct system behind the walls, once installed and drywalled you are stuck with it. Contractors can be lazy (one of mine was). Many want to steer you to the easiest or a buddy. You need a second opinion from a real pro. The old days of one furnace and one a/c unit over in the corner of the basement are long gone.
 
   / Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please! #42  
Get a second opinion, I've built 2 new home myself and worked in HVAC for 20 years , company I worked for is the largest
Water furnace dealer in the nation, we installed up to 1000 units per year. If installed correctly they are the best and most energy efficient
system going , a zoned system is a great way to go, just make sure the HVAC company knows what the heck they are doing no matter what type system
you end up having installed.
 
   / Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please! #43  
I have had a geothermal system in my 2300 sq ft home in northern Ohio for 7 years.
I love it.
 
   / Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please! #44  
What ever system you decide on remember that energy costs NEVER go down and this is a lo-o-o-ng term investment.
Over the years you can (will) replace the equipment for a reasionable cost. The equipment is designed to be replaced, if there is access and space to do so. On the other side of the coin increasing the insulation is a nightmare.
 
   / Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please! #45  
We had a Trane put in as our main system in our house in the DFW area. I want to say it is an 18 seer? The important part for is and that on would highly recommend is the variable speed fan. It barely seems to be running and still keeps it comfortable in the Texas heat. Saves us a bundle on electricity. It is especially good on those days when it is humid, but not too hot. The system still cycles on low power and keeps it comfortable. The older systems were either on full blast or off. On warm humid days it would be sticky because the old system only kicked on once in awhile.

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   / Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please! #46  
I have an opinion about geothermal HVAC systems that may not be popular, but it is based on owning 2 homes over the years with geothermal heating and cooling. My experiences are both with open-loop geothermal, so maybe folks with a closed loop system have had different experiences...

I don't see myself having a 3rd home with geothermal HVAC. Although it is absolutely true that geothermal is, by far, the most economical way to heat or cool a house from an operations perspective, there are downsides to geothermal that folks generally never mention.

1) The up-front cost is very high. Even with Federal and State tax incentives, geothermal is still expensive. Best case is that the tax incentives bring the installed cost into the same realm as a conventional heating/cooling system. And remember, these are TAX incentives -- typically, you still have to pony up the cash upfront and then get it back later through reduced Federal and State income taxes.

2) While this is true for all kinds of HVAC, you really REALLY need to make sure that the company you are using understands how to install geothermal properly. These are very sophisticated systems and a mistake in installation can cause you a lot of pain and suffering, and they can take a long time to identify and correct.

3) Geothermal systems require far less maintenance than traditional HVAC systems, but they do require some maintenance and occasionally repair. Not every HVAC company is well-versed in the ins-and-outs of geothermal. This reduces your options in the event that you have a falling out with the installing company, or in the event that company goes out of business, or if you need an emergency service in the middle of the winter. It does force the homeowner into being something of an expert in geothermal systems so that you can make an emergency repair on your own, or do some regular maintenance to save a few bucks.

4) Any very high efficiency equipment is going to be sophisticated. This almost always means that cost of replacement parts may shock you. As an example, I have a Florida Heat Pump split unit. The fan motor failed in the air handler. The cost of the new fan motor was $1600. I thought I was being lied to, so I called a number of other HVAC outfits. Two of them did not work on geothermal units (see my point above), but they told me that I was being robbed because a new fan motor was about $800 installed. A third outfit that did work on geothermal regularly told me that since Bosch had bought Florida Heat Pump, the prices on parts had gone up some and that the variable speed fan motor in my air handler was indeed a $1600 part. That $1800 repair ($1600 parts, $200 labor) ate up a LOT of the energy savings that the geothermal unit had brought me over the years.

5) This applies to open-loop geothermal, and likely isn't an issue for closed loop systems. The first home I owned with geothermal HVAC used a single well for supply, return and domestic water. It took the better part of a full winter to identify the proper height at which to hang the pump such that I would not suffer thermal mixing or freezing of the return water. This was a painful experience. My current home has a dedicated return well. This has eliminated that issue, but there are others. Water quality becomes a huge concern with open-loop geothermal. When my current supply well suddenly began producing large amounts of particulate matter at year 5 of geothermal use, I found myself struggling to find a proper filtration solution that wouldn't have me cleaning the filter daily. One must also have a properly sized and installed water pumping solution. I ultimately went with a constant pressure pump and a small pressure tank to limit the number of starts and stops that the pump would otherwise encounter when supplying a geothermal heat pump.

Anyway, these are just a few of the less-positive aspects of geothermal heat pump ownership. There is a lot to be said for a conventional HVAC system...
I agree with you. We have two geo units in two separate buildings, both are closed loop. i designed both system and they work real well, they have never gone into back up and both are going on 20 years. I wouldn't even consider geo where you are, heat pumps have come a long way. If I was to do it again and in your case as far south as you are i would use a heat pump cased coil on top of a propane furnace as the air handler and as back up heat.

i guess i have never understood why it is so hard to find some one to repair goe thermal. They use the same water source heat pumps in commercial office buildings, they just pump the water up to a cooling tower. The unit in my shop is exactly what they use. They have them stuffed in the ceiling all over the place in some older office buildings. The units for home use are basically the same thing with the air handler attached. When we had to replace the compressor on one of our units I called a commercial heating contractor. We ordered the parts they came out and installed it.

It sounds like most of your issues are because of the open loop and on the air handler side. When we installed ours finding someone that would install the ground loop correctly was not easy. Now there is companies out there that is all they do.

In our area the companies that "install geo" use a separate company to install the ground loop. Then they sub out the tin. Then they slid in there fancy geo unit/air handler. It is so proprietary that is ridiculous. (water furnace)We use a separate geo unit that feeds a cased water coil on top of a standard forced air propane furnace for one. Then we have one of the fancy self contained(water furnace) for our home.
 
   / Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please! #47  
I can't imagine installing straight air conditioning when you need heat as well. Heat pump is the better way to go. I am heating in Canada with a heat pump and my backup heat source does not kick in. Depending on the outdoor temperature, I get between 2.5Kw and 4KW of heat per 1KW of electricity to run it. Geothermal is even better, but very expensive up front.
 
   / Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please! #48  
Probably already mentioned, but i had a heat pump unit installed and if i had an option - i would never go with a heat pump again. I like heat, not semi- warm air. That is also coming from an old fart too… :)
 
   / Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please! #49  
Why are you even considering gas furnaces when heat pumps are more efficient? And geothermal, if you can get it, is even more efficient.
 
   / Building a custom home - HVAC options - could use a bit of help please! #50  
Who designed the house? My dumb ol engineer response is call a Mechanical Engineer, who should have been a sub to the Architect.

I’m Facilities Engineer for the Forest Service. I read a couple of hours a night to stay current on the changes in the codes, and efficiency of new systems and products. I know quite a bit about a lot of things, but that mostly just gets me to the point I can ask intelligent questions of the folks who have specialized areas of knowledge.

I would never consider installing a new heating system in a building of that size without it going through a good Mechanical Engineer who is familiar with the current industry standardS, and in high efficiency green buildings.

Modern buildings should be almost completely air tight, and have heat exchanging air make up systems installed.

I installed an ultra high efficiency minisplit heat pump system, with a “smart” control system in one of our buildings four years ago. Winter temps drop into the low teens Pretty regularly, with occasional cold snaps where it doesn’t get above 0F for one or two weeks. The only time the system has had to kick on the emergency heat, is when someone comes in at an unscheduled time and bumps their thermostat up. The system has learned how much heat loss the building has, and how much heat it can make at what the outside temperature is, and turns on early enough to get to the desired temperature at the desired start of the day. Compared to the ducted oil burner it replaced, it is heating for about half of the cost per degree-day.

This is one of those one chance to get it right, and fifty years of regret kind of decisions. And, as one of he other posters mentioned. The life cycle cost on a building is about 20% in initial construction and 80% operation and maintenance.
 
 
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