Buying Advise Needed

cds · May 23, 2006

Warning, long-winded message ahead! I would greatly appreciate comments on the “talking points” listed below.

I’m looking for a tractor for occasional use on approximately 6 acres of property. Considering the basic tasks and limited run hours I am planning on, I feel that a Chinese model is a good option. My budget would only permit the purchase of a well-used “major” brand and I would prefer new, despite the reported fit-and-finish issues with Chinese models. I am willing and able to repair the tractor as needed and do not need an extensive/expensive warranty-as long as parts are readily available. I would appreciate input from others regarding the proper selection of a unit and options for my needs.

Prior tractor experience:
I have operated a Farmall BN, Cub, and an International TD-9 crawler. I am now looking to buy something more modern to take advantage of 3-point implements.

Planned usage:
Here’s what I want to do with the tractor: pull out bushes, till or plow/disk a garden, use a slip scoop, run a post hole auger, use a small grader blade or box blade to work the packed gravel along the edge of my short driveway, and other similar tasks. Though I would certainly love to have a loader to play with, I probably wouldn’t use it enough to justify the added expense. I’ve learned to live without one.

HP:
I have looked into 22, 25 and 28HP models. I think 25 should be more than enough for my needs. Would a 22 cut it?

2WD/4WD:
This is a tough decision for me. Do I really need 4WD? I know that I’d need it to add a loader in the future but it seems like it may be overkill for my needs.
Does anyone have any thoughts? Anyone with 2WD buyer’s remorse?

Tires:
Currently, I run the Cub and BN with ag tires with no problems because I don't have a manicured lawn. I guess it would be different with 4WD. If I opt for 4WD I was planning on turf tires and adding chains as needed. Would this give me enough traction for bush pulling, tilling, etc.?

Chinese models reviewed:
I live in eastern PA and have looked into the following models:
Jinmas - crated units, Farm Pros, Nortracs, and TSC Minot models.
Foton – Though I haven’t seen one in person, the price makes me consider a long drive to the nearest Rural King store in Wooster, OH. The $4,499 FT250A 25HP 2WD model interests me, but I was told by a sales rep that it is not available with ag tires and that the manufacturer does not recommend using them. Any thoughts on this? The FT254A 4WD has a assembled price close to the crated Jinma I’ve been looking at. Both Foton models use the same 3-cyl engine (Y385) that is used in the Jinmas, correct? If so, engine parts, at least, should be easy to locate. How about chassis parts? I've read about clutch diameter differences but, other than that, are there major differences from Jinmas (good/bad)?

Crate vs. Assembled:
I know I would enjoy the assembly process, and a parts-only warranty isn’t a concern if reasonable repairs are involved. However, I am nervous by the thought of having a bad engine/transmission, cracked casting, or other major fix right out of the crate. I know that’s the gamble involved in getting a good deal, but how likely is a major defect? I am strongly considering a crated 25HP Jinma for about $6K. Assuming that all crated units are not the same, are there specific questions I should ask or features I should look for (EPA engine, etc.)?

If you’ve read this far, thank you for your patience. I would appreciate any and all comments.

cds · May 23, 2006

Warning, long-winded message ahead! I would greatly appreciate comments on the “talking points” listed below.

I’m looking for a tractor for occasional use on approximately 6 acres of property. Considering the basic tasks and limited run hours I am planning on, I feel that a Chinese model is a good option. My budget would only permit the purchase of a well-used “major” brand and I would prefer new, despite the reported fit-and-finish issues with Chinese models. I am willing and able to repair the tractor as needed and do not need an extensive/expensive warranty-as long as parts are readily available. I would appreciate input from others regarding the proper selection of a unit and options for my needs.

Prior tractor experience:
I have operated a Farmall BN, Cub, and an International TD-9 crawler. I am now looking to buy something more modern to take advantage of 3-point implements.

Planned usage:
Here’s what I want to do with the tractor: pull out bushes, till or plow/disk a garden, use a slip scoop, run a post hole auger, use a small grader blade or box blade to work the packed gravel along the edge of my short driveway, and other similar tasks. Though I would certainly love to have a loader to play with, I probably wouldn’t use it enough to justify the added expense. I’ve learned to live without one.

HP:
I have looked into 22, 25 and 28HP models. I think 25 should be more than enough for my needs. Would a 22 cut it?

2WD/4WD:
This is a tough decision for me. Do I really need 4WD? I know that I’d need it to add a loader in the future but it seems like it may be overkill for my needs.
Does anyone have any thoughts? Anyone with 2WD buyer’s remorse?

Tires:
Currently, I run the Cub and BN with ag tires with no problems because I don't have a manicured lawn. I guess it would be different with 4WD. If I opt for 4WD I was planning on turf tires and adding chains as needed. Would this give me enough traction for bush pulling, tilling, etc.?

Chinese models reviewed:
I live in eastern PA and have looked into the following models:
Jinmas - crated units, Farm Pros, Nortracs, and TSC Minot models.
Foton – Though I haven’t seen one in person, the price makes me consider a long drive to the nearest Rural King store in Wooster, OH. The $4,499 FT250A 25HP 2WD model interests me, but I was told by a sales rep that it is not available with ag tires and that the manufacturer does not recommend using them. Any thoughts on this? The FT254A 4WD has a assembled price close to the crated Jinma I’ve been looking at. Both Foton models use the same 3-cyl engine (Y385) that is used in the Jinmas, correct? If so, engine parts, at least, should be easy to locate. How about chassis parts? I've read about clutch diameter differences but, other than that, are there major differences from Jinmas (good/bad)?

Crate vs. Assembled:
I know I would enjoy the assembly process, and a parts-only warranty isn’t a concern if reasonable repairs are involved. However, I am nervous by the thought of having a bad engine/transmission, cracked casting, or other major fix right out of the crate. I know that’s the gamble involved in getting a good deal, but how likely is a major defect? I am strongly considering a crated 25HP Jinma for about $6K. Assuming that all crated units are not the same, are there specific questions I should ask or features I should look for (EPA engine, etc.)?

If you’ve read this far, thank you for your patience. I would appreciate any and all comments.

SPIKER · May 23, 2006

first off 2 vs 4 wheel drive. if you want a FEL later then you NEED the 4 wheel drive.

25/28 are pretty much same critters BUT resale is a bit better on the 28 SIZE wise they are same, the 20 and 22 hp are smaller tires & wheel base slightly I belive, (older info though here.)
I maintain 23 acres with my 284, and pull lots of stuff, run a 5' brush hogs & finish mowers, (probably could run a 6' finish mower if going slightly slower. pull 6' box blade & rock rakes easy ehough too, I have china ZL20 FEL and JW03 HOE all OK but wish I had better FEL like a Kokyer.

anyhow I usually loose traction with the AG tires before loosing power unless I have a good weight on it. and in 4 wheel drive. turfs are worse in this respect chinas would helpo but in all reality if you stay off wet lawns leaving ruts is not that bad with the ags.

anyhow hope this helpped if i missed anything someone else will pipe in or post more ?s
Mark M

SPIKER · May 23, 2006

first off 2 vs 4 wheel drive. if you want a FEL later then you NEED the 4 wheel drive.

25/28 are pretty much same critters BUT resale is a bit better on the 28 SIZE wise they are same, the 20 and 22 hp are smaller tires & wheel base slightly I belive, (older info though here.)
I maintain 23 acres with my 284, and pull lots of stuff, run a 5' brush hogs & finish mowers, (probably could run a 6' finish mower if going slightly slower. pull 6' box blade & rock rakes easy ehough too, I have china ZL20 FEL and JW03 HOE all OK but wish I had better FEL like a Kokyer.

anyhow I usually loose traction with the AG tires before loosing power unless I have a good weight on it. and in 4 wheel drive. turfs are worse in this respect chinas would helpo but in all reality if you stay off wet lawns leaving ruts is not that bad with the ags.

anyhow hope this helpped if i missed anything someone else will pipe in or post more ?s
Mark M

DwayneB · May 23, 2006

R4 industrial tires are an option that lies between turf and ag tires. Easy on the lawn but provide some traction also. You have probably seen them on full size back hoes. For the small price diff I would go 4WD.

DwayneB · May 23, 2006

R4 industrial tires are an option that lies between turf and ag tires. Easy on the lawn but provide some traction also. You have probably seen them on full size back hoes. For the small price diff I would go 4WD.

JohnS · May 23, 2006

Planned Usage/HP: a 25hp Jinma will handle your tasks fine. I don't believe the 28hp is EPA approved. I would get EPA engine. But as Spiker says, no meaningful difference in the work output from 25 to 28hp.

2WD/4WD: Go 4WD. The 2WD will be harder to find, and only be a minor savings. Also unique parts for the 2WD will be harder to come bye.

Tires: Hmmm, didn't mention lawn mowing in tasks... I have one of those more "natural" lawns, ie I'm the guy with all the dandilions, and other weeds, the rest of the neighbors talk about /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Given that, I wouldn't use ags, 2wd or 4wd to mow my yard. Leaves too much of an impression, especially in the spring time. Your soil may vary. On the other hand, I wouldn't use turfs for plowing or tilling, either. R4s would be a good compromise if you can get them at a reasonable price. If you can find them, probably another 1K or more to price.

Models: I know a bit about the 200 series jinma, but have never touched a foton.

Crate Advice: Check out the warrantee and service provided, just like an assembled dealer. Are they going to help with diagnois over the phone, or leave it up to you? How well are they stocked for replacement parts? do you have to wait for the next load from china? Also, when you pay can be a big difference. Some are basicly importing a single unit to you, vs keeping their own stock in the states.

Good Luck in your search.

JohnS · May 23, 2006

Planned Usage/HP: a 25hp Jinma will handle your tasks fine. I don't believe the 28hp is EPA approved. I would get EPA engine. But as Spiker says, no meaningful difference in the work output from 25 to 28hp.

2WD/4WD: Go 4WD. The 2WD will be harder to find, and only be a minor savings. Also unique parts for the 2WD will be harder to come bye.

Tires: Hmmm, didn't mention lawn mowing in tasks... I have one of those more "natural" lawns, ie I'm the guy with all the dandilions, and other weeds, the rest of the neighbors talk about /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Given that, I wouldn't use ags, 2wd or 4wd to mow my yard. Leaves too much of an impression, especially in the spring time. Your soil may vary. On the other hand, I wouldn't use turfs for plowing or tilling, either. R4s would be a good compromise if you can get them at a reasonable price. If you can find them, probably another 1K or more to price.

Models: I know a bit about the 200 series jinma, but have never touched a foton.

Crate Advice: Check out the warrantee and service provided, just like an assembled dealer. Are they going to help with diagnois over the phone, or leave it up to you? How well are they stocked for replacement parts? do you have to wait for the next load from china? Also, when you pay can be a big difference. Some are basicly importing a single unit to you, vs keeping their own stock in the states.

Good Luck in your search.

RonMar · May 23, 2006

As John said, look at the specifics of that parts warranty. Does the dealer stock the parts or do you have to wait Months for them when needed.

You say you are from PA, you didn't mention snow... That alone would push me towards 4WD over 2. And as mentioned, the majority of those imported are 4WD. If you don't need it, you can always uncouple it and won't really do any more damage to the grass than a 2WD would. If it is slippery though, it is sure nice to have. It will also give you a bit more traction force when pulling, particularly over uneven ground. I have a lawn tractor with large turfs for mowing the nicer area that I try to pass for lawn(John described mine pretty well

. I have 7 1/2 acres and I went with the 28 HP 4WD so I could run a 5' brushhog across some pretty uneven terrain. As for a loader, that is what the tractor is for, to carry the FEL from place to place. I use the FEL EVERY time I use the tractor, if only to help hold the tractor in place when parked on uneven terrain. I even use it when brushhogging as a "feeler". I run the bucket down real low to the ground to find stumps and other debris that I can't see in the brush.

RonMar · May 23, 2006

As John said, look at the specifics of that parts warranty. Does the dealer stock the parts or do you have to wait Months for them when needed.

You say you are from PA, you didn't mention snow... That alone would push me towards 4WD over 2. And as mentioned, the majority of those imported are 4WD. If you don't need it, you can always uncouple it and won't really do any more damage to the grass than a 2WD would. If it is slippery though, it is sure nice to have. It will also give you a bit more traction force when pulling, particularly over uneven ground. I have a lawn tractor with large turfs for mowing the nicer area that I try to pass for lawn(John described mine pretty well

. I have 7 1/2 acres and I went with the 28 HP 4WD so I could run a 5' brushhog across some pretty uneven terrain. As for a loader, that is what the tractor is for, to carry the FEL from place to place. I use the FEL EVERY time I use the tractor, if only to help hold the tractor in place when parked on uneven terrain. I even use it when brushhogging as a "feeler". I run the bucket down real low to the ground to find stumps and other debris that I can't see in the brush.

cds · May 24, 2006

Thanks to all that took the time to reply.

It seems that 4WD is the way to go.

Regarding the tires, I guess I should rethink my position on turf and go with ags. If the ags are too damaging, could I eventually change over to turfs? I guess I'd have to change tires and rims... or would there be a 4WD gearing issue due to a change in wheel/tire circumference?

If anyone has any input on the Foton models (good or bad), kindly speak up.

cds · May 24, 2006

Thanks to all that took the time to reply.

It seems that 4WD is the way to go.

Regarding the tires, I guess I should rethink my position on turf and go with ags. If the ags are too damaging, could I eventually change over to turfs? I guess I'd have to change tires and rims... or would there be a 4WD gearing issue due to a change in wheel/tire circumference?

If anyone has any input on the Foton models (good or bad), kindly speak up.

JohnS · May 24, 2006

( Regarding the tires, I guess I should rethink my position on turf and go with ags. )

Before finalizing that decision, I'd re-evaluate your tasks and how often you will be doing them, and if keeping your current mowers is an option. Assuming lawn mowing at once a week, that could be your major task. Given that is the case, re-evaluate if turf with chains can do the other tasks, be it possibly take a bit longer. If you have relatively flat terrain, and not hard packed soil, you might be able to plow with turfs and chains. Might have to go to a single bottom plow, but unless we are talking some huge gardens, your plowing activity is probably a yearly event. Using turfs and chains in my soil, I'd suspect the treads/chains would fill quickly and become a slick. Your soil may be different. Try to get additional input from others, that might have done this. Plus, you have the option to use your current mowers. Choices, choces, choices..... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

( If the ags are too damaging, could I eventually change over to turfs? I guess I'd have to change tires and rims... or would there be a 4WD gearing issue due to a change in wheel/tire circumference?
)

I use to believe that a gear change was required, but I think I have seen dealer input that indicates that it is not. Check with the dealers you are condidering.

JohnS · May 24, 2006

( Regarding the tires, I guess I should rethink my position on turf and go with ags. )

Before finalizing that decision, I'd re-evaluate your tasks and how often you will be doing them, and if keeping your current mowers is an option. Assuming lawn mowing at once a week, that could be your major task. Given that is the case, re-evaluate if turf with chains can do the other tasks, be it possibly take a bit longer. If you have relatively flat terrain, and not hard packed soil, you might be able to plow with turfs and chains. Might have to go to a single bottom plow, but unless we are talking some huge gardens, your plowing activity is probably a yearly event. Using turfs and chains in my soil, I'd suspect the treads/chains would fill quickly and become a slick. Your soil may be different. Try to get additional input from others, that might have done this. Plus, you have the option to use your current mowers. Choices, choces, choices..... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

( If the ags are too damaging, could I eventually change over to turfs? I guess I'd have to change tires and rims... or would there be a 4WD gearing issue due to a change in wheel/tire circumference?
)

I use to believe that a gear change was required, but I think I have seen dealer input that indicates that it is not. Check with the dealers you are condidering.

cds · May 24, 2006

JohnS:

Thanks for the comments.

I have other equipment for grass cutting. I may occasionally do some field mowing on a neighbor's property (once or twice each summer). I would do mostly tilling/plowing a garden, bush pulling, light grading, (no snow removal expected).
Do you have experience with turfs & chains?

Thanks for the information on the tire change/gear change. I was worried about that. Do the turfs and ags use the same rims?

By the way, I enjoy your website. How old is your tractor and how many hours do you have on it now? Please feel free to share any words of warning or wisdom with a potential crate tractor buyer.

cds · May 24, 2006

JohnS:

Thanks for the comments.

I have other equipment for grass cutting. I may occasionally do some field mowing on a neighbor's property (once or twice each summer). I would do mostly tilling/plowing a garden, bush pulling, light grading, (no snow removal expected).
Do you have experience with turfs & chains?

Thanks for the information on the tire change/gear change. I was worried about that. Do the turfs and ags use the same rims?

By the way, I enjoy your website. How old is your tractor and how many hours do you have on it now? Please feel free to share any words of warning or wisdom with a potential crate tractor buyer.

SPIKER · May 25, 2006

CDS:
(Please fill in you're info so people can see where you are from, no need telling you about snow remoal if you live in South FLA. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

anyhow crate purchace is OK, can save a few $'s too. one of the biggest things is to get a helper so moving tires ect can be done without something falling over on you... I assembled 2 units one by myself took 15 or so hrs as I wasn't presed for time, the second my brother helped me oput and we were done start to finish in 8 that was with pulling the crated tractor inside and dragging out the old crate & driving out the new tractor... also had a few refreshments in there /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

one big thing is to go over the tractor top to bottom on every bolt, nut and componet mount brackets for loose missing or damaged items, I can't stress the missing loose bolt nut part enough,... I got a HYD shower due to LOOSE mounting bolts /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif (I missed the fact that the 4 mounting bolts that hold the 3pt speed lower block on were not 100% tight and it blew the o-ring under it when I attempted to lift my box blade on the 3pt. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif it show up like a texas gusher right between my legs > /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

the taskes you mentioned indicate AGs to me, and the TURFS are a big $ adder and sinse you indicate attepmting to save $ forgo the turfs, and keep it out of 4 wheel drive anytime you are traversing the lawn areas. 4wheel drive and steering causes the ruts more so than anything else, but hey my lawn is probably worse than JOHNSS as he said he has a small quanity of GRASS in his in someplaces /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif mine is mowed field nad I don't expect much from it, infact I haven't mowed 3+ of the acres as of yet so I guess I need to get the brush hog on it...

anyhow have fun be safe and keep up al informed we like to know how things are goig for people.

mark M

SPIKER · May 25, 2006

CDS:
(Please fill in you're info so people can see where you are from, no need telling you about snow remoal if you live in South FLA. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

anyhow crate purchace is OK, can save a few $'s too. one of the biggest things is to get a helper so moving tires ect can be done without something falling over on you... I assembled 2 units one by myself took 15 or so hrs as I wasn't presed for time, the second my brother helped me oput and we were done start to finish in 8 that was with pulling the crated tractor inside and dragging out the old crate & driving out the new tractor... also had a few refreshments in there /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

one big thing is to go over the tractor top to bottom on every bolt, nut and componet mount brackets for loose missing or damaged items, I can't stress the missing loose bolt nut part enough,... I got a HYD shower due to LOOSE mounting bolts /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif (I missed the fact that the 4 mounting bolts that hold the 3pt speed lower block on were not 100% tight and it blew the o-ring under it when I attempted to lift my box blade on the 3pt. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif it show up like a texas gusher right between my legs > /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

the taskes you mentioned indicate AGs to me, and the TURFS are a big $ adder and sinse you indicate attepmting to save $ forgo the turfs, and keep it out of 4 wheel drive anytime you are traversing the lawn areas. 4wheel drive and steering causes the ruts more so than anything else, but hey my lawn is probably worse than JOHNSS as he said he has a small quanity of GRASS in his in someplaces /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif mine is mowed field nad I don't expect much from it, infact I haven't mowed 3+ of the acres as of yet so I guess I need to get the brush hog on it...

anyhow have fun be safe and keep up al informed we like to know how things are goig for people.

mark M

billbill1 · May 25, 2006

I have the 284 LE (shuttle shift) if the ground is moist at all, the rear tires will try and spin in soft areas. In 4WD it will move around without spinning. I wouldn't want one without 4WD, I'd be tearing the ground up too much. As I understand it, the pre EPA 25 and 28 hp are the exact same thing, the only difference is the rpm is higher on the 28 hp rated engine. Mine is 28 and my friend has the 25 hp, I see no difference in power or anything else. I also pull a 2-bottom plow with mine, it wouldn't pull the plow with turfs, it would spin. I've never seen a Foton so I can't comment on them. They are good economy grade machines, at least the Jinmas have parts readily available at good prices (I haven't had to buy anything in a year and a half and 140 hours) I have the Koyker loader and I also really like having that. JohnS has been around these tractors more than anyone I know of.

billbill1 · May 25, 2006

I have the 284 LE (shuttle shift) if the ground is moist at all, the rear tires will try and spin in soft areas. In 4WD it will move around without spinning. I wouldn't want one without 4WD, I'd be tearing the ground up too much. As I understand it, the pre EPA 25 and 28 hp are the exact same thing, the only difference is the rpm is higher on the 28 hp rated engine. Mine is 28 and my friend has the 25 hp, I see no difference in power or anything else. I also pull a 2-bottom plow with mine, it wouldn't pull the plow with turfs, it would spin. I've never seen a Foton so I can't comment on them. They are good economy grade machines, at least the Jinmas have parts readily available at good prices (I haven't had to buy anything in a year and a half and 140 hours) I have the Koyker loader and I also really like having that. JohnS has been around these tractors more than anyone I know of.