Comparison BX models vs. the small B choices.

[kcender]

Can't you just easily apply enough pressure on the reverse pedal to slow down or even stop?This may not be the approved procedure but it works and takes less effort than applying the brakes.I do this on a regular basis when operating my HST tractors.It is just second nature to me now but I will say it is usually in slow speed situations.

 

[AxleHub]

I hate to keep focusing on a product I don't own . . But I keep hearing alot of excuses and reasons why Kubota is not needing to fix a significant safety problem with their tractor.

Now lets evaluate for a moment with clear heads. Too many are saying its just some greasing or use reverse or etc. Etc.. lets remember that people are paying 18,000 for something to work like every other brands do and like kubotas have worked for 15 years already.

1. This isn't something that just "happened". They did something. Maybe its defective springs or whatever . . But 18,000 buys you a finished and qualified product. NOT A GET OUT YOUR TOOLS project to make it safe.

2. Now John Thomas reported he had the dealer work on it . . .not once . . But twice . . and it still didn't stop and operate like it should. I've been told by other users the very same thing. So lets asdume that if the dealers can't fix it . . Its a bonafide safety problem.


Now lets get real . . out of control tractors heading down approved slope hills with no braking is NOT ok. Its NOT acceptable. If you have flat land then you have easy talking. Many many many do not have flat land and it isn't worth their bones and their bodies so others can say . . "Oh gee lets not expect kubota to fix their broken star of the grouping product".

Or shall we put it another way . . my Massey doesnt have the problem . . and Yanmar doesn't . . so do we just want to say Kubota's product is inferior and unsafe ???? Do you want new buyers with slopes to buy the other brands?

Or shall we say it yet another way . . . I don't want to be responsible for even one person being maimed or worse because I stood by and was silent about Kubota's problem with a hst that can't do its job?

I'm not emotional . . I'm disturbed that it doesn't get others caring about the safety of other tractor operators. We're not talking about old used equipment. If you're proud to own a Kubota . . then you should be concerned that the reputation and financial health of the company are not harmed as wellas the buyers of kubota product being harmed.

Are we talking about 10 or 20,000 units? Please don't post its just Johnthomas unit because I know better. And his setvicing dealer is competent besides.

Now as readers . . what are you going to do about it ?

 

[ultrarunner]

We ended up buying an L3800 last time we started looking at the BX25... very happy with it.

Remember that the abrupt stop in reverse was the subject of many posts on the BX25 predecessor... maybe the engineers overcompensated for it?

I can't emphasize enough the value of seat time and putting a machine through it's paces before putting down 18k

Suggested to one of the members he rent a BX25D for a day before buying and he did just that and decided to keep looking...

Home Depots have them for rent as do others...

 

[PhysAssist]

Inside my barn when we're moving pallets around, and shifting between implements on the 3-pt hitch, and mayve sometimes mowing between tree, etc, I almost wish I had a BXxxxx, everywhere else, I am either very happy with our B2320, or occasionally wish for something just a little bigger, heavier, and more powerful.

But, that said, it hit the sweet spot for us in it's price.

YMMV,
Thomas

 

[JOHNTHOMAS]

I have the BX25D. The parts manual shows no changes in the functional parts (linkage, damper, transmission) from the D to the D-1. They should behave the same. Actually, it should behave the same as the BX25 as the parts listing shows it to have the same damper as well.

To answer John's question, "will it come to a complete stop going down hill? Neither the BX24 nor the D will come to a COMPLETE Stop. Both will come to a near stop, but will continue to roll I have steep hills, all of my other previous and current ones will stop going down the steep hill in 4wd and then do a slight creep or jerky creep so I do a reverse tap to keep it stopped or use the brakeslowly down the steep hill unless you touch the rear pedal. Interestingly enough, my 1972 (43 years old) International Harvester Cub Cadet with hydrostatic trans behaves the same way when moved to the neutral position. I'm curious if later model HST lawn tractors do the same??? Just head down a hill and let off the pedal... Does it come to a complete stop? I haven't driven one of the late mowers so I'm curious now.

On flat pavement, from full speed in high range, full throttle, the D comes to a complete stop in just about the length of the tractor when the pedal is released. Mine doesn't, it comes to a good, proper as all other have done stop except it keeps rolling and doesn't completely stop The BX24 is similar. I tested the BX24 last evening and the BX25D this morning. I think at least some readers are getting the impression that the tractor continues to fly along at the breath-taking 8 mph top speed. It does NOT, it stops, almost and the almost part is the issue because all others stop completely, stop, dead stop, no further forward motion, like STOP The BX24 has no damper on the reverse pedal and can stop very quickly in reverse if not operated judiciously. It feels no different in forward.

As I've said before, I had a slow speed experience similar to John's. While moving the machine in a very tight spot, doing some precise positioning, the tractor crept forward a few inches before I got it stopped. This happened when the machine was near 0 hours. After a few hours of use, it never happened again and now stops reliably. If mine had done this I'd be fine because I'd accept the settling in of parts after use, Mine doesn't, it still rolls a bit and stopped on a slight hill, not steep, slight, like the one on Barlows lot it will continue to creep, roll all the way to the bottom of the hill if the brake isn't push on or reverse tapped and even then it will start slowly rolling down the hill so one knows the center detent has been reached

John, is yours behaving differently than mine?

Yes, mine is behaving differently than your as you've described yours

Can't you just easily apply enough pressure on the reverse pedal to slow down or even stop?This may not be the approved procedure but it works and takes less effort than applying the brakes.I do this on a regular basis when operating my HST tractors.It is just second nature to me now but I will say it is usually in slow speed situations.

Yes, I can and do do this. Oh, I don't want to open a stop valve and jiggle the battery cables every time I start my Kubota or shall I say new Kubota. I guess one can accept any problems with a new machine if they can figure some steps to make it work for them. I'm working this Kubota and am following your advise but should one take in to consideration that it's not right and it's new and should be fixed? If your car door on your new car won't stay closed couldn't you just get a big Velcro strap and strap it closed and then release every time you want to get in and out? Is that what you'd do?

We ended up buying an L3800 last time we started looking at the BX25... very happy with it.

Remember that the abrupt stop in reverse was the subject of many posts on the BX25 predecessor... maybe the engineers overcompensated for it?
[...........B]No, or they would be purely stupid and the ones I met and talked with didn't seem stupid. There was a series for several years, the BXxx60 series, between the abrupt stop in reverse but not in forward BXxx50 series that worked fine. Why one even consider they went back now to fix a problem that was 7 years ago and had been fixed for 6 years?/B]
...........................I can't emphasize enough the value of seat time and putting a machine through it's paces before putting down 18k

Suggested to one of the members he rent a BX25D for a day before buying and he did just that and decided to keep looking...

Home Depots have them for rent as do others...

It doesn't totally stop when the go pedal is released. It almost stops on level, down hill, down steep hill, it almost stops just like all of the HSTs I've owned. It was new, it was greased, it was adjusted, twice, by the master mechanic go to know every thing about Kubota mechanic at Barlows. With or with out dampers, right dampers, to many dampers, to few dampers it still doesn't come to an absolut complete stop like all other HSTs I've owned and the brake on the wrong side probably hasn't caused the problem. Centering the pedal for sure still doesn't totally stop it but reversing the pedal will and does make it ant to go in the other direction but when the pedal is released and surely centered having come from reverse it will still roll forward a bit, not rapid speed but still roll forward if going down hill and not like the creep or jerky creep of all my other current and former HSTs.
If one does open field work like I'm doing now on a building site it's mostly OK but if I need to lift a bundle of steel for the workers and get it exactly positioned I'll not trust this machine to stop precisely where I need for it to stop on my level site by letting off the go pedal like all my former HST Kubotas did.

 

[AxleHub]

Can't you just easily apply enough pressure on the reverse pedal to slow down or even stop?This may not be the approved procedure but it works and takes less effort than applying the brakes.I do this on a regular basis when operating my HST tractors.It is just second nature to me now but I will say it is usually in slow speed situations.

Kcender. If an operator is going down a 10 or 15 degree slope (fully approved by Kubota) in 4wd mode with an empty fel on front . . . Taking your foot off the pedal on a normal hst acts just like a really good version of engine braking and that engine braking look-a-like transfers to all 4 wheels. Its far superior to using the brakes which work only with rear wheels which going down that steeper slope . . Have very little and low quality contact with the turf besides . . so you go hurtling down the hill with little control of speed or direction and potentisl danger to life, limb, and property.

Then there is the idea you mentioned of tapping the reverse power pedal. In effect this is like "power turn braking" as a method of controlling the tractor.

And just like power braking . . Its hard on the tractor because going downhill with wheels moving one direction and then suddenly sending them in a reverse direction is a considerable transmission tork. And of course being in 4wd going down hill with little good rear wheel contact and maximized front wheel contact can easily cause the tractor to go into a rather sudden and violent tailspin.

And like any tailspin, it can cause a vehicle to roll.

And all this because Kubota produced their latest newest version of the 18,000 dolar BX25 with aparently a defective operating hst system that the dealers can't fix.

 

[BXpanded]

Kcender. If an operator is going down a 10 or 15 degree slope (fully approved by Kubota) in 4wd mode with an empty fel on front . . . Taking your foot off the pedal on a normal hst acts just like a really good version of engine braking and that engine braking look-a-like transfers to all 4 wheels. Its far superior to using the brakes which work only with rear wheels which going down that steeper slope . . Have very little and low quality contact with the turf besides . . so you go hurtling down the hill with little control of speed or direction and potentisl danger to life, limb, and property.

If 4wd is not engaged, the brakes nor the HST have any braking effect on the front wheels. Not on a Kubota. Not on a Massey. If the 4wd is engaged, the brakes and the HST ****** both axles. True of the Kubota. True of the Massey.

Part numbers are relevant. If there had been a design change in recent models, some of the part numbers would be different. If the part numbers have been the same for 4 years, that indicates that there has been no design change and a malfunction would indicate a defective part or a maladjustment.

There has been no reference to an out of control situation. John stated his tractor creeps at "almost stopped".

I took a minute to look at the BX25D owners manual. An excerpt recommending checking the HST centering as a part of ongoing maintenance is attached. Also referenced is adjustment of the control if it is too slow to return to neutral. I suspect there is a similar paragraph in the Massey manual.

Perhaps it's time for John to take a look at the Workshop Manual WITH the Master Mechanic to make sure the adjustment instructions are followed. If it still persists, perhaps it's time to look at the individual parts.

 

[AxleHub]

1. If 4wd is not engaged, the brakes nor the HST have any braking effect on the front wheels. Not on a Kubota. Not on a Massey. If the 4wd is engaged, the brakes and the HST ****** both axles. True of the Kubota. True of the Massey.

2. Part numbers are relevant. If there had been a design change in recent models, some of the part numbers would be different. If the part numbers have been the same for 4 years, that indicates that there has been no design change and a malfunction would indicate a defective part or a maladjustment.

3. There has been no reference to an out of control situation. John stated his tractor creeps at "almost stopped".

4. Perhaps it's time for John to take a look at the Workshop Manual WITH the Master Mechanic to make sure the adjustment instructions are followed. If it still persists, perhaps it's time to look at the individual parts.

Greetings BXpanded,

1. I specified 4wd being engaged. And while hst effects front and rear when in 4wd . . Brakes are a rear axle item . . Not front and rear.

2. But there HAS been a design change which is why it is a different model number. A list of matching parts numbets DOES NOT mean they are assembled and installed in tje same way. You are ignoring the obvious . . The hst drive system is operating in a much different way and differentbredilt than former models.

3. There HAS BEEN indications of out of control. Even in Johns comments he indicates on LEVEL ground it "gradually was slowing" to a NEAR stop. SO how would it be on a Kubota approved 15 degree slope?? And John also indicated he couldn't trust to move a load of steel bars on the site because he couldn't control the stopping. AND lets remember if you used the "tap the reverse pedal" to force a stop . . that is not a controlled activity as your liad could be knocked forward and out with the suddenness.

4. So now you want users to double check and supervise a certified dealer service departmrnt who has worked on his many pieces of equipment for 20 years and who adjusted the unit twice ? That is both an unreasonable expectation to put on customers and an illogical one. You buy from kubota or yanmar or massey or john deere because of their quality of product and dealership/service centers.

And lets remember this isn't the first user reporting the problem . . this isn't "John's problem" . . . It IS Kubota's problem and it IS their responsibility to correct.

 

[s219]

Greetings BXpanded,

Brakes are a rear axle item . . Not front and rear.

Not true -- the brakes are inside the transmission case and control the output shaft. If you have 2WD, the brakes act only on the driven axle. If 4WD engaged, the brakes act on both axles.

This is a very important thing to know with tractors, since you will have enhanced braking with 4WD engaged, and it's very important when carrying heavy loads that may un-weight one of the axles.

 

[BXpanded]

Greetings BXpanded,

1. I specified 4wd being engaged. And while hst effects front and rear when in 4wd . . Brakes are a rear axle item . . Not front and rear.

With 4wd engaged, the front and rear axles are locked together. If you stop the rear axle, the front axle MUST stop also. Makes no difference whether you stop the rear axle with the brake or with the HST. Your tractor is the same.

2. But there HAS been a design change which is why it is a different model number. A list of matching parts numbets DOES NOT mean they are assembled and installed in tje same way. You are ignoring the obvious . . The hst drive system is operating in a much different way and differentbredilt than former models.

There are many design changes made in areas that have no effect on other parts of the machine whether it be a tractor, car or airplane. The change from the BX25D to the BX25D-1 involved changing to a molded floor mat and another minor change that I can't even remember. There was no design change to the drive train. The molded floor mat has a different part number than does its predecessor indicating that it is changed.

3. There HAS BEEN indications of out of control. Even in Johns comments he indicates on LEVEL ground it "gradually was slowing" to a NEAR stop. SO how would it be on a Kubota approved 15 degree slope?? And John also indicated he couldn't trust to move a load of steel bars on the site because he couldn't control the stopping. AND lets remember if you used the "tap the reverse pedal" to force a stop . . that is not a controlled activity as your liad could be knocked forward and out with the suddenness.

I guess there are different degrees of out of control. You seem to be trying to make some point that hundreds of orphans and Nuns are endangered by the tractor moving forward very slowly. I also agree that it should stop. Kubota recommends checking that and issues instructions to make that happen.

4. So now you want users to double check and supervise a certified dealer service departmrnt who has worked on his many pieces of equipment for 20 years and who adjusted the unit twice ? That is both an unreasonable expectation to put on customers and an illogical one. You buy from kubota or yanmar or massey or john deere because of their quality of product and dealership/service centers.

Seems I've seen your posts on another thread where you have advocated application of lemon laws, etc because a poor soul can't get his Certified Massey dealer to correct a myriad of problems on his GC. Are you implying that this certified Massey dealer should not be reviewed? Occasionally dealers run into problems they don't know how to handle. No mechanic knows everything about every tractor. I'm not implying that the dealer is not competent. For instance, I don't remember anyone mentioning that the hydraulic damper has been replaced which might indicate to me, that he hasn't tried everything. I'm not advocating that step, just an observation.

And lets remember this isn't the first user reporting the problem . . this isn't "John's problem" . . . It IS Kubota's problem and it IS their responsibility to correct.

You are correct. It is indeed Kubota's problem to correct. John has many friends at his dealer of choice. That's why I'm a bit surprised that they have not gone farther with the process.

AH, I'm sorry, but this has been far too time consuming to continue. I have to get back to work!
Have a great afternoon!