BX1850 engine trouble

[Gary T.]

drag_slick,

I don't think you had an oil pressure problem. Even if you did loose pressure for a couple of seconds every once in a while, I don't think that would be enough to destroy crank bearings. I also don't think that Kubota would design a tractor engine that would loose oil pressure on a slope. I have had my RTV900, GL3130, L45, and my BX1860 on extreme slopes both up, down, and sideways and have never seen my oil pressur light com on. Maybe you should have a machine shop look it over.

Gary T.

 

[SPYDERLK]

I have to turn around. The tractor is unable to back up the hill due less traction with the AGs in reverse.
larry.

 

[drag_slick]

I have to turn around. The tractor is unable to back up the hill due less traction with the AGs in reverse.
larry.

I think if I could have done this I would have been ok, gravity would have forced the oil back, but my fence is at the bottom of the hill so I had to back up the hill so the front stayed pointed down.

 

[Z71]

Spyder, what weight and brand motor oil are you running?

but I also don't know of anybody with a fleet of diesel trucks, compressors, generators and tractors that runs Amsoil either.

Jeff Floster Trucking of Superior Wis (2.5 million miles); Sue Vinje Trucking Inc Superior, WIS (35 18-wheelers_; City of Duluth Dept of Public Works; Guardian Pest Control; Nordic Waste of Dultuh to name a few in this area. AMSOIL has millions new customers every year.

 

[rdsaustintx]

Wow, this thread has gone weird. I don't buy the slope explanation either. No way.

If you are at a severe enough angle to starve your oil pickup, you are not operating. You are either sliding or rolling over.

PLENTY of things to worry about running a tractor on a slope. The engine self-destructing ain't one of them.

 

[leonz]

Yup,

It starved definitely. as the lower sump is the last line of defense as I have mentioned previously descfribing the inclines in terraced rice paddies.

I am so sorry it happened.

it sounds like you will need to add an external oil pump with a manual switch to keep the lower sump filled if you have to push snow like that from now on if you do not fill the upper sump to the full mark

 

[dodge man]

Yup,

It starved definitely. as the lower sump is the last line of defense as I have mentioned previously.

I am so sorry it happened.

How are you so sure it starved of oil? For me to say this, I would have to have the oil pan for a BX in my hand and see where the pick up is. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just haven't seen it on my BX. I have also gone up and down hills, that if they were any steeper, they we be very unsafe.

 

[leonz]

How are you so sure it starved of oil? For me to say this, I would have to have the oil pan for a BX in my hand and see where the pick up is. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just haven't seen it on my BX. I have also gone up and down hills, that if they were any steeper, they we be very unsafe.

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I have worked on them enough to tell you that the lower sump is the redundant oil reservoir and if the oil flows out of it no oil returning, the engine is wadded.


The twin slopes in the mine where I used to work are 21 degrees and they engines on our boss buggies had to be overfilled- filled high mark upper sump and filled lower sump to provide proper lubrication and for oil to reach the pump and strainer hence 2 dipsticks in all the small engines as you can have a filled lower sump and a short on oil upper sump and still kill it.



Dont forget you are sitting two feet or so above the ground which makes your eyes and brain think its even steeper due to your line of sight vision and you would have wadded your engine if it was steeper.

Rack railways are not as steep as funiculars but are still very steep and the engines are tilted down creating a level engine while ascending to counter the angle of attack required to ascend the funicular rail path and incline.

funicular rail lines are much steeper in many places and are unable to use diesels for propulsion and have to have a counterbalanced system with a second tram to provide energy to move in opposite directions on the funicular.


Terraced rice paddies are very steep and often located above 21 degrees in incline on the mountains and hillsides-hence the 2 sumps to provide oil pressure when riding down the decline, the lower sump and oil intake is always flooded when when ascending the incline.


the rice paddy terrace farms are why the smaller engines has two sumps as the wadded a lot of the small diesels before they found out what killed them all.


It wont hurt the crancase any as the breather relieves all the crankcase pressure anyway.


A tractors center of gravity is quite a bit higher and above the oil sump or crank so that an entirely different animal versus oil pumping

Thats why the tilt meters are so nice to have in the tractor to remind you about the center of gravity and how little wiggle room you have.

Perhaps it may be simpler to just blow the snow over the bank
and not worry about pushing it from now on?

Granted I have no knowledge of your snow removal needs but that seems to be the lesser of two evils.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Dumped the oil and cut the filter apart and there was a bunch of metal shavings so the engine was yanked and dropped the pan off. Looks like the main bearings are shot, the crank can be wiggled about 1/8". [[I still would like a description of this play in the crank]]
Just trying to figure out what happened here and if I did something to cause it. Unfortunatley the tractor's a year out of warranty so I'm guessing I'm outta luck.

Any thoughts?

I think if I could have done this I would have been ok, gravity would have forced the oil back, but my fence is at the bottom of the hill so I had to back up the hill so the front stayed pointed down.

Could be I suppose, but I would call that negligent design unless oil was below the "safe" level marked on the stick. I agree with rdsaustintx below.

Wow, this thread has gone weird. I don't buy the slope explanation either. No way.

If you are at a severe enough angle to starve your oil pickup, you are not operating. You are either sliding or rolling over.

PLENTY of things to worry about running a tractor on a slope. The engine self-destructing ain't one of them.

Im thinking the crank has excessive endplay. 1/8" anything else should be making a lot of noise. Seesawing de planed the rod bearings and the resulting lowered pressure worked on the mains too.

Yup,

It starved definitely. as the lower sump is the last line of defense as I have mentioned previously descfribing the inclines in terraced rice paddies.

I am so sorry it happened.

it sounds like you will need to add an external oil pump with a manual switch to keep the lower sump filled if you have to push snow like that from now on if you do not fill the upper sump to the full mark

Whats this upper an lower sump stuff. .. and how is the lower going to be empty if theres oil in the upper. Doesnt the upper drain into the lower?
larry

 

[leonz]

Could be I suppose, but I would call that negligent design unless oil was below the "safe" level marked on the stick. I agree with rdsaustintx below.


Im thinking the crank has excessive endplay. 1/8" anything else should be making a lot of noise. Seesawing de planed the rod bearings and the resulting lowered pressure worked on the mains too.


Whats this upper an lower sump stuff. .. and how is the lower going to be empty if theres oil in the upper. Doesnt the upper drain into the lower?
larry

puuuleease if the nose is down hill and the oil is not filled full in both sumps the lower sump will starve the oil pump if the angle of decline is steep enough and the oil pressure and splash lube cannot grab any oil!!!!!!

Up hill wont matter as the lower sump will be flooded due to the incline


The tip off was the oil sample report as the bearings were already damaged.

 

[Gary T.]

drag_slick,

If you were pushing snow down a hill in the spring, wouldn't that mean you were backing up a hill that was wet or covered in more snow. I would have to think that for you to starve your tractor for oil, the hill would be so steep that you wouldn't have enough traction when it was wet or covered in snow. I have backed up hills with my BX1860 that were so steep, if they were wet I would not have enough traction. Something doesn't add up.

Gary T.

 

[SPYDERLK]

puuuleease if the nose is down hill and the oil is not filled full in both sumps the lower sump will starve the oil pump if the angle of decline is steep enough and the oil pressure and splash lube cannot grab any oil!!!!!!

Up hill wont matter as the lower sump will be flooded due to the incline


The tip off was the oil sample report as the bearings were already damaged.

What in the heck are you talking about?

 

[dodge man]

Upper and lower sump? Are you sure this exists on a BX engine. I'm not saying it doesn't, but I've been under mine and that doesn't ring a bell. I think someone suggested to the OP that this is what happened to his machine and he jumped on board.

 

[drag_slick]

Yeah, no upper and lower sump on the bx1850 as far as I can see. I was backing up the hill in 4wd and chains on. I need to measure the slope. It is steep enough that I wouldn't go across the slope.

I've got the old block, crank, pistons, rods, bearings, etc. back at the house now if pictures of anything would help.

Just to clarify, it's not like I drove down and backed up the slope once and this happened, I cleared at least 500', so the tractor was nose down for the better part of a half hour or more.

 

[radioman]

drag slick- pictures always can help. you know we TBN'ers love pics!

Now, don't get us wrong, there no blame here, I doubt that running BX at an angle would do that much damage, but it would definately be a contributing factor. I just think there could be something else we may have missed here. We just need to put our CSI hats on and check it out. You also need to rememeber that there are MANY, MANY BX owners out there and they are cuoirus what EXACTLY happened. you wouldnt want the same thing to happen again to your second engine would you ? Knowing the internals of the BX engine will help us be a better BX owners I would say. :thumbsup:

 

[dodge man]

With chains on, I can see a couple of things happening that could cause it. You could have been working back and forth, causing the oil to slosh back and forth and starving it for brief periods of time. With chains on you could get on a pretty steep hill and get traction. It seems like when this stuff happens, you never really know what happens. You can see the damage, but unless its something obivious, like a clogged oil pick up, you don't know what failed. I'd take a look at the old oil pump, my gut reaction is the oil pump failed, but you never know, working on the hill like that for a long period of time could have done it in.

Like others have said, I'm just trying to learn so I don't do the same thing.

 

[leonz]

Yeah, no upper and lower sump on the bx1850 as far as I can see. I was backing up the hill in 4wd and chains on. I need to measure the slope. It is steep enough that I wouldn't go across the slope.

I've got the old block, crank, pistons, rods, bearings, etc. back at the house now if pictures of anything would help.

Just to clarify, it's not like I drove down and backed up the slope once and this happened, I cleared at least 500', so the tractor was nose down for the better part of a half hour or more.

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If its unsafe to transverse travel across the slope its above 15 degress for sure;


If I did not ask you this before please accept my apology:

Do you have two dip sticks for checking oil level? the two cylinders do or did.

IF your engine has 2 oil fill ports- one above the valve train and a second directly to the sump you will have two dip sticks even though you have one oil pan with or without a stepped oil pan.

the two cylinders are like this as well.


A while back one of the folks with an oil level question has an orange beast with two dip sticks and we went through this isssue with him as he was coming up short on oil and he did no check both dipsticks, he was worried about oil being trapped in the valve train etc.-but it drains down and as the sump was low every time he checked it he was worried.

 

[dodge man]

I'm pretty sure BX's have a single sump and a single dip stick. I know what you are talking about, but it's not the case with a BX.

 

[leonz]

Isnt there a second oil filler-tube and cap by the spin on oil filter? We had one on the two cylinders on the two wheel drive boss buggies but we could not reach them due to the clearance issues and used the one on top.

I am wondering if his D722 has the second lower dip stick on the left side like the 2 cylinders as the dip stick on the right side is the longer one?

The other question is whether he has kept one gallon of oil in the sump as it is a 3 liter sump?

The kubota site only shows the right profile of the D722 with the oil filler over the valve train and the longer dip stick for the crankcase.

If the angle was above 15 degress in decline it would be possible for the oil to splash out of the breather as it is open to atmosphere
as he was operating with the nose down hill and as he backed up the oil would be sloshing back and forth until the oil level was so low it would not splash out the breather.


The oil pump and fuel pump are driven off the crank bevel gearing If I remember right anyway and if the oil is low and the angle is severe enough where its sloshing out the breather the little oil remaining will be pulled by the pump and starve the crank bearings while under load.




leonz