Canopy - Clamp or Drill mount to ROPS??

[Tom_Veatch]

Oh, I don't know about the "doom and gloom" part, but I do know when I pay good money for something intended to save my rear when the **** hits the fan, I'm not gonna intentionally do something to it that may compromise its ability to save said rear.

 

[IslandTractor]

I agree with you Tom but I really don't see the danger in drilling a few quarter inch holes in the upper structure of the ROPS. Those things are sized as big as they are (I'm talking about the steel not the overall size) becasue there are considerable forces placed on the lower part of the rops due to the lever arm (? terminology here it's been a while since I studied physics) when a tractor rolls...am I correct? If so then the upper arch of the ROPS is way over built and could surely tolerate a few small holes (especially if there were bolts and washers) without affecting structural integrity.

 

[Tom_Veatch]

...
If so then the upper arch of the ROPS is way over built and could surely tolerate a few small holes (especially if there were bolts and washers) without affecting structural integrity.

It is quite likely, even probable, that you are right. I would not, however, put my stamp or seal on the change without a lot more investigation and analysis. I remember the collapse of the Hyatt Regency Skywalk in Kansas City on July 17, 1981. A seemingly innocuous design change by the building contractors changed the load paths enough to kill 114 people and injure another 200+.

As long as there is a satisfactory alternative to machining/drilling/etc. the installed ROPS - effectively changing the design - I would opt for that alternative and strongly recommend that course for others. Just my opinion, non-binding on anyone but me.

 

[dbdartman]

From the "for what it's worth" file:

I've built many many NHRA certified roll bars & cages, so I feel somewhat qualified to address this subject.

I would have no problem drilling a ROPS if the hole is sleeved & welded!

Simply find a piece of tube your intended bolt will fit through (not too tight!), cut it about 1/4" longer than the thickness you intend to install it in, drill your ROPS slightly larger than the OD of your tube (1/64" -1/32" works) & weld the tube in with equal over-hang on both ends. Touching the flat ends of the tube with a grinder/sander after welding, if your weld is too big, assures flat mounting surfaces. This way the structure is not compromised.

BTW, the weakest parts of a ROPS (or roll bar/cage) is at the bends & where it mounts to the chassis/frame.

And that's my 2-cents worth on this subject, take it for what it's worth!

DB

 

[Soundguy]

I was actually speaking of tractor warranty.. however.. I guess rops warranty my be a possibility. My rops have a sticker on them that says -ALL- warranties are null and voidd if the rops structure is modified. I'm sure that was added by a lawyer.. not an engineer.. but then.. it will be the lawyers who will litigate.. etc.

As for the insurance co. needing to proove that a mod tot he rops caused a problem.. well.. you can try that.. however... my bet.. is that a judge.. or a reasonable jury.. will view a non-certified modification to a safety advice as 'lending;' to the failure or accident.. i.e. reasonable doubt.. etc.

Soundguy

It's always dangerous disagreeing with Soundguy but.....

Warranty on a ROPS? How many warrranty claims are there on ROPS'?

Insurance claim is different but it would still be up to the company to show that some minor modification somehow grossly affected the strength of the product. I doubt the places that you would drill holes for a canopy are the structurally weakest areas of a ROPS. I presume the manufacturers use square tube rather than a tapering tube for economic, not engineering reasons. The top section of the ROPS must therefore be "over engineered". Common sense in using the smallest appropriate bolt (hole) near the top of the ROPS would seem prudent and not drilling anything at the more highly stressed base of the ROPS also prudent.

 

[Soundguy]

I'd say that is great advice... as long as you are willing to sign your name to the work, and offer up your insurance carriers info to cover any problems encountered.. ( that darn liability issue... )

Soundguy

From the "for what it's worth" file:

I've built many many NHRA certified roll bars & cages, so I feel somewhat qualified to address this subject.

I would have no problem drilling a ROPS if the hole is sleeved & welded!

Simply find a piece of tube your intended bolt will fit through (not too tight!), cut it about 1/4" longer than the thickness you intend to install it in, drill your ROPS slightly larger than the OD of your tube (1/64" -1/32" works) & weld the tube in with equal over-hang on both ends. Touching the flat ends of the tube with a grinder/sander after welding, if your weld is too big, assures flat mounting surfaces. This way the structure is not compromised.

BTW, the weakest parts of a ROPS (or roll bar/cage) is at the bends & where it mounts to the chassis/frame.

And that's my 2-cents worth on this subject, take it for what it's worth!

DB

 

[whitetiger]

All ROPS manufacture's will tell you not to drill or weld on the structure.
Also, it is not legal to sell or trade a tractor with modifyed ROPS.
We have had to discount trade ins the price of drilled Rops and replace them with a new one.
Our lawn and garden service drilled a hole in a grasshopper ROPS to mount a radio this summer and cost use a new ROPS to replace the new one he had just bolted on a hour before. The first one make for some very expensive powder coated scrape iron.

 

[IslandTractor]

Also, it is not legal to sell or trade a tractor with modifyed ROPS.

I'm confused by this statement. Is that a federal law?

Why are there no similar laws regarding modification of automobiles. Certainly people do all sorts of crazy things to suspensions, body, engine etc etc on automobiles (which after all travel much faster than tractors and are at much higher risk for serious "kinetic" accidents)?

I fully appreciate that the tractor company lawyers go nuts with disclaimers etc because it is cheaper to forbid doing anything at all to the tractor than it would be to defend a claim. I presume those sorts of disclaimers can be challenged.

Also, while I appreciate the concern with drilling is that you would weaken the ROPS structure, I would point out that adding anything to a ROPS whether by Ubolts or welding or bolting potentially weakens the ROPS too. A well constructed canopy could hit an object while tipping over (say a wall or tree trunk) and instantly add a shock or twisting force on the ROPS that the ROPS was not engineered or built to withstand. Does adding a canopy count as a modification to the ROPS too?

 

[Soundguy]

My sticker specificaly says drill or weld.. hard to tell if they 'imply' other reasons too.

One would think ( assuming here... ).. that if it is a dealer installed rops and a dealer installed canopy.. then it is 'compatible' equipment. Seems it would be the same issue if you added a FEL to a tractor, as you are adding weight...

I also notice many ROPS units are designed to fit multiple tractors... thus implying they have a 'range' of weight characteristics.

I'm not a lawyer.. just guessing here.

I also truly believe that the safety issue is actually the 2nd reason for the rops, and liability is the 1st reason.. even if 'safety 1st' is the best idea.. etc.

Soundguy

 

[mark1]

My Compact tractor came with Foldable ROPS and a canopy. But I have never installed the canopy. so there's these big ole 1/2" holes in the tubing.no sleeves/etc.
Remember "sometimes you have to shoot the engineers and go get the job done!"

 

[IslandTractor]

Remember "sometimes you have to shoot the engineers and go get the job done!"

Actually, I'd start with the product liability lawyers and Ralph "I helped elect W" Nader would be a good start.

 

[Soundguy]

Then move on to the bean counters. Between the lawyers and the bean counters.. it's no wonder why an initial functional idea costs 100x as much as the prototype, and functions radically differently, if at all... and has a diminished service life... perhaps on purpose.

Soundguy

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm still curious if a modified ROPS has ever failed? Is there any evidence that it has actually happened? I'm talking about a factory installed ROPS with either mounting holes drilled through them or material welded to them. Not some extreme, rediculous modification or home built ROPS.

I'm going to put a canopy on mine in the future and have debated between welding on tabs or drilling. I'm leaning towards drilling as I can't see how a hole through the sides of the ROPS will affect the strength in any significant manner.

Another thing I don't understand is who am I going to sue or go after if I have an accident and the ROPS bend? If I roll the tractor, I'm at fault for bad driving already. I'm confused under what situation anybody would actually be concerned with a warantee of the ROPS anyway. I understand that a dealer could be sued if "He" or "They" modified the ROPS, but when I do so, than it's my problem.

If I sell the tractor at some point in time, and the buyer rolls the tractor and the ROPS fail, then wouldn't they have to prove that it failed because of the holes in them? What are the odds that the injury to the driver would be related to ROPS failure anyway? I just can't imagine how a few small holes in the ROPS could cause them to fail.

I know tractors tip over if you go to fast, leave the bucket up with a load and turn to fast or drive on too steep of a hill or over a drop off. When do they actually roll all the way over? It seems to me that of all the pictures I've seen of tractor roll overs, the tractor actually just fell on it's side.

That brings to mind the question of where the holes will be and how a roll over will affect them. Holes going side to side should not have an affect on a sideways roll. The only time those holes shold affect a ROPS made from square or rectangular material would be in a backwards flip, if even then. If the tractor flips backwards, does the ROPS or tractor warantee cover that anyway? I don't think so since the overall design of the ROPS is only intended for sideways rolls. In my personal opininion, and personal experience in two jeep rollovers, the mounting points are where the ROPS will fail in a backwards roll.

And my final question is what is actually covered by this ROPS warantee that becomes null and void if the ROPS is modified? Does this mean that if you engine blows up, the manufacturer isn't responsible or doesn't have to honor their warantee if there's a hole in the ROPS? Has this ever happened? Ever???

Thanks,
Eddie

 

[Soundguy]

I've seen an incorectly installed rops/ adapter plate fail on a tractor. it was an older one.. but it did have provisions for mounting a rops to the axle, and was using the correct rops.. however it did fail due to how the owner mounted it.. etc.

Also.. don't kid yourself. While rops are great on a side roll, they were an absolute boon in the rear roll over department that many farmers used to 'test' often.

And yes.. if a rops is certifeid to protect a tractor in a backflip condition, and if it is not modified, and it is installed correctly, then if a flip occoured, and the op was injured or died, and it was determined that it was the fault of the rops, then I'd imagine there would be a big insurance settlement.. that's the 'warranty' that most speak of, concerning rops modification.. i.e. the post-mortem liability insurance money warranty... etc.

I'd also guess in a lawsuit of this type, the rops manufacturer or his insurance carrier would hire and send a -team- of engineers to inspect the rops and instalation. My guess is if they found a single drill hole or weld, they could probably sidestep quite a bit of liability.. if not all of it.. without having to prove if the hole or weld actually contributed to the failure.. since the owner voided that certification by modifying it.

Lets put it like this. if I was on a jurry and there was a rops failure, and a death, I'd be way more inclined to vote for a money award in the situation where there was no evidence of rops modification. On the other hand.. if there were welding to shorten, or weld things on.. like lamps or a roof, or drillings to add things on.. I'd pretty much consider that the owner was taking his life into his own hands at that point... that's my honest opinion. I just couldn't see awarding a huge sum of money to a guys estate after he modified his rops that specifically state -Don't modify -.

What is it about 'do not' that people -do not- understand??? that's my question.. It's so easy to circumvent the no drill / no weld proviso by using 'D' or band clamps.. and they pass the -DO not- weld or drill test....

Soundguy

 

[Tom_Veatch]

...
Another thing I don't understand is who am I going to sue or go after if I have an accident and the ROPS bend? If I roll the tractor, I'm at fault for bad driving already. I'm confused under what situation anybody would actually be concerned with a warantee of the ROPS anyway. I understand that a dealer could be sued if "He" or "They" modified the ROPS, but when I do so, than it's my problem.
...

There seems to be a whole lot of people out there who don't feel that way, Eddie. And there seems to be a whole lot of ambulance chasers (A.C.) out there that encourage them to not feel that way.

I agree with you. If I shoot myself in the foot, I figure I really shouldn't have done that and hobble on about my business. But there seems to be a segment of society that has been taught and encouraged to think "it's not my fault"; that whatever happens to me is the fault of that guy over there.

<rant>
Who to sue? Anybody within sight- especially if he looks like he might have a dollar or two. That guy over there looks like he's got money - he should have seen what I was doing and stopped me. He didn't, so sue him! Didn't have anything to do with it, you say? Doesn't matter! The A.C. I've got on contingency can concoct some convoluted theory of liability the jury might buy. Nothing to lose, so sue him!

It's not new. I think the litigation craze that's infected society these last few years (decades?) is the current version of the witch trials of the 17th century. Trip and fall in the mud? Wasn't because I'm clumsy, some witch cast a spell on me. Find 'em and hang 'em.
</rant>

 

[whitetiger]

California Code of Regulations, Title 8, Section 1596. Roll-Over Protective Structures (ROPS).

I'm confused by this statement. Is that a federal law?

Why are there no similar laws regarding modification of automobiles. Certainly people do all sorts of crazy things to suspensions, body, engine etc etc on automobiles (which after all travel much faster than tractors and are at much higher risk for serious "kinetic" accidents)?

I fully appreciate that the tractor company lawyers go nuts with disclaimers etc because it is cheaper to forbid doing anything at all to the tractor than it would be to defend a claim. I presume those sorts of disclaimers can be challenged.

Also, while I appreciate the concern with drilling is that you would weaken the ROPS structure, I would point out that adding anything to a ROPS whether by Ubolts or welding or bolting potentially weakens the ROPS too. A well constructed canopy could hit an object while tipping over (say a wall or tree trunk) and instantly add a shock or twisting force on the ROPS that the ROPS was not engineered or built to withstand. Does adding a canopy count as a modification to the ROPS too?

 

[IslandTractor]

The California code is interesting. Here is one of the sections that is relevant:

e) Modification or Repair. ROPS required by Section 1596(a) may be modified or repaired providing such modification or repair complies with the provisions of Section 1596(d) or Federal OSHA standard 1926.1000(c)(2).

Now, Section 1596(d) says:


(d) Retrofit Design Criteria. The following items comprise the basic design criteria for retrofit ROPS used on scrapers, tractors, front-end loaders, bulldozers, motor graders and water wagon prime movers manufactured prior to April 1, 1971, and for rollers and compactors manufactured prior to July 1, 1977:
(1) Designs shall be based on one of the following:
(A) SAE Recommended Practice J-1040-a, February, 1975, or
(B) Structural analysis calculations equivalent to SAE J-1040-a, or
(C) Capability to support at least 2 times the gross machine weight applied vertically subsequent to an independently applied side load not less than 1.25 times the gross machine weight applied horizontally at the top of ROPS.
NOTE: 1. Gross vehicle weight includes the ROPS, all fuels and other components required for normal use of the vehicle.2. The structural characteristics of the vehicle frame must be included in the design of the ROPS system.3. The mounting brackets shall be capable of withstanding vibration and the design loads applied to the ROPS.
(2) The inside dimensions of the ROPS shall meet the deflection limiting volume requirements of SAE J-397-a, July, 1973. (3) The design of the ROPS shall be approved by a registered civil or mechanical engineer.


It seems what it boils down to is having a registered engineer do structural analysis calculations and sign off on any change. So, the real questions are 1) how big a hassle is that and 2) is an engineer likely to consider drilling a few holes in non structurally critical areas of the ROPS a problem. I imagine it would be quite a hassle unless one found an engineer familiar with the whole process and those are probably not easy to find.

 

[Soundguy]

While I agree 100% on the issue of too much litigation, and personal responsibility, we must not overlook the fact there there could be legitimate times when an accident occoured, that was not driver error, and you would want the rops to save you.. and you were not at falt.
Hypothetically speaking.. I can think of over a dozen possibilities. Some far stretched.. some no. especially when you look at the evening news.

I'll toss a few out:

You are driving along in your 4wd tractor, on a flat road, with a ditch to your side. You hit a sinkhole that opens under a tire.. or the axle snaps.. you roll into the ditch.... better hope that certified rops holds. If it doesn't.. there may be a valid lawsuit. No probable you say? I work for a GC doing road work. I have personally seen where a 5g bucket size sinkhole has opend up in an instant on a busy road, letting a car tire fall in, and doing sheetmetal damage to the car. I have also seen many stories posted here and in the other forums I read where a spontanious 2wd or 4wd axle snapped off. Could have been a manufacturer defect.. or hidden damage from another user ( friend borrowed tractor.. cracked axle.. gave it back.. know one knew ).. etc. It does happen...

You are driving around on a construction site.. provate or comercial.. it doesn't matter.. and all of a sudden a child runs out in front of the tractor.. you avoid the child and lay the tractor over due to the lay of the terain.
This type of situation has been in the news..

A dock worker, on a concrete dock, driving a fork lift, unloading semi trailers. The end of the concrete dock crumbles, forklift tumbles.
This happend in my city, and was inthe newspaper.

All of these are situations that are beyond the control, or scope or responsibility of the driver. In these cases.. if the rops failed.. If I were on a jurry.. I'd be inclined ( according to the facts of the case and the specifics of course.. ) to award money from the rops certification liability insurabce provider.

And yes.. people generally sue everybody in sight.

Where I work, there is a 4 way intersection, our business is on one corner, and a jiffy store on the other corner. One road is a stop, the other road is continous. A 16y old girl in a new car ( that day ) with her 15y old boy friend, came up tot he intersection and pulle dout without looking.. right into the path of a loaded semi truck. Literally pulled out right as it was entering the intersection. Speed limit was 55mph. FHP determined truck was doing the speed limit. Girl died on the scene.. boy went into a coma for some time and made some level of recovery.

Daddy sued:

Our company.. because we are on the corner,
owner of our company personally,
jiffy store, same reason
Trucking company owning semi truck.
truck driver
contract carrier that owned the freight in the truck.
County ( county road )
Subcontractor that had installed the stop signs, and blinking red stop lamp on the non thru street.

The judge allowed the company owner personallyto be removed from the case.. ( company still in case ) but let the case go on with the other 7 defendants listed.

The def attorneys all got together fromt he 7 defendents and decided that it would be cheaper to offer 10k$ each defendent to settle the case than to litigate. And that's what happened. Each insurance carrier got squeezed for 10k.. for an accident that the inexperienced driver CAUSED.

Soundguy

There seems to be a whole lot of people out there who don't feel that way, Eddie. And there seems to be a whole lot of ambulance chasers (A.C.) out there that encourage them to not feel that way.

I agree with you. If I shoot myself in the foot, I figure I really shouldn't have done that and hobble on about my business. But there seems to be a segment of society that has been taught and encouraged to think "it's not my fault"; that whatever happens to me is the fault of that guy over there.

<rant>
Who to sue? Anybody within sight- especially if he looks like he might have a dollar or two. That guy over there looks like he's got money - he should have seen what I was doing and stopped me. He didn't, so sue him! Didn't have anything to do with it, you say? Doesn't matter! The A.C. I've got on contingency can concoct some convoluted theory of liability the jury might buy. Nothing to lose, so sue him!

It's not new. I think the litigation craze that's infected society these last few years (decades?) is the current version of the witch trials of the 17th century. Trip and fall in the mud? Wasn't because I'm clumsy, some witch cast a spell on me. Find 'em and hang 'em.
</rant>

 

[Soundguy]

It seems what it boils down to is having a registered engineer do structural analysis calculations and sign off on any change. So, the real questions are 1) how big a hassle is that and 2) is an engineer likely to consider drilling a few holes in non structurally critical areas of the ROPS a problem. I imagine it would be quite a hassle unless one found an engineer familiar with the whole process and those are probably not easy to find.

I'd wager that you would have a hard time getting a SE to sign off on a change. By doing so.. he is on the line.. liability wise for the rest of that thractors and rops life...

He'd have to charge a fee equal to what a huge liability insurance policy would cost. I.E. he's have to charge hundreds ( thousands? ) of dollars to certyify your changes... Unless you find an eng that actually made those rops.. or perhaps worked witht he company that did.. and has all the structural data and loading characteristics, and materials info with him.. then maybee.. just maybee... he might do it for cheaper.

Soundguy

 

[EddieWalker]

Soundguy,

While I totally agree with your reasoning and facts for not drilling into a ROPS, I'm probably still gonna do it. Welding tabs onto it is still and option, but clamps are really not something I'm interested in. I understand they work in most instances, but I also know that they don't in others. It's really about wether I want a permanent cover as oposed to one I can remove or that is flimsy. This is my definition and term, so what I find flimsy, other might consider more than acceptable. Kind of like those sun shades made from fabric versus those made from fiberglass, plastic or metal. I'm going with metal.

It all boils down to two things here. First is the ability to sue the company that built the tractor in case theres an accident and personal injury or damage occurs. I honestly don't see any scenerio where this will happen. My tractor is several years old, I've beat it really bad and assume full responsiblity for anything that will now brake on it in the future. My only reason to go to the dealer is for parts I can't get at Napa. My warantee is long over and if the ROPS fails, it could be from a dozen other reasons than drilling a few holes through it. I really don't think the holes will make any difference to the strength or integrity anyway. California law or not. hahaha

The other point you make is wether the buyer of the tractor when I sell it can sue me for drilling those holes. In order for that to happen, we need to believe that those holes will be a cause for failure in the case of a rollover and the ROPS fails. Again, has this ever happened? Ever????

Everyone sites many cases of where it "might" or "could" happen, but as of yet, I haven't seen a singe case of this happening. It's kind of like worrying about the moon droping out of the sky on our heads. It's never happened, but maybe it could? OK, sorry for that, but the point is the same. I'm not gonna sweat what could happen when it's never happened.

Again, I'm talking about manufacutred installed ROPS, not some home made job. There is a huge difference here and there is no way to know what a home made system is capable of.

Yes, there are all sorts of silly lawsuits out there and lots of them win because it's cheaper to pay off than to fight. A company I used to work for paid up to $25,000 on lawsuits before fighting them. They would make offers up to that amount in small incriments over time in order to stall or avoid going to trial. It's a game for the lawyers on each side. I've been involvdee with plenty of these scenerios.

Just to through out a few instances that most everyone does that can open them up to similar lawsuits. How about changing the brakes on your own car? If you sell that car and the buyer has an accident, can he sue you for doing the brakes yourself? Are you qualified and certified in your state to change brake pads? I be almost any part on your auto should only be worked on by a certified and licensed mechanic.

Same with home repairs. Has anybody put in an appliance, light fixture, plumbing fixture, window, door or even landscaped there yard? The list goes on and on, but if somebody buys your home, are you liable for those modifications to the house if somebody gets hurt? I bet you are, and even worse, even if you're not, a lawyer can still file a lawsuit against you.

The list is endless from bicycles to boats and homes to work, anybody can be sued for anything. I'm sure it will happen to me, but I'm also sure it will be something totaly rediculous that will cost me ten grand or more to defend. It sucks, but that's the society we live in. I'm still gonna drill my ROPS.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, and hopefully I've made a good argument for my point of view. It doesn't matter to me what anybody does to there tractor, it's their tractor. Cut the ROPS off, drive without your seatbelt and have a beer at the same time. It's your life and I'm all for your living as long or as short as you want to.

Enjoy,
Eddie