Canopy - Clamp or Drill mount to ROPS??

[IslandTractor]

I'd wager that you would have a hard time getting a SE to sign off on a change. By doing so.. he is on the line.. liability wise for the rest of that thractors and rops life...

He'd have to charge a fee equal to what a huge liability insurance policy would cost. I.E. he's have to charge hundreds ( thousands? ) of dollars to certyify your changes... Unless you find an eng that actually made those rops.. or perhaps worked witht he company that did.. and has all the structural data and loading characteristics, and materials info with him.. then maybee.. just maybee... he might do it for cheaper.

Soundguy

I agree although presumably the engineer has other business and is not going to charge you the full cost of his professional liability insurance. In fact, assuming he is in active practice, getting a relatively small fee for approving what he might agree is a minor and non critical change to the ROPS would just be cash in his pocket as he already has the insurance. The real trick would be to find an engineer who knows enough about ROPS to comfortably approve a minor mod without spending any real time investigating the matter. Kinda like getting a structural engineer to approve a certain beam size for a house...if it is the first time he's done that he'll take some time to figure out all the parameters...if he does it routinely then a few familiar load calculations are all he needs to do.

 

[Soundguy]

Could happen? Well.. what about the us getting nuked? Could happen... Hasn't happened.. but yet.. we still bui8lt a missle defense system. See some parallels there.

I think the reason why everyone opts for safety vs taking a risk is the huge 3 digit million dollar liability possibilities... and probably that alone.

Flimsy sun shades? Id wager.. if done correctly.. a clamp on one may be more sturdy than a bolt on one, if bolted on in such a way as to not reduce the strength of the rops.

Take a look at my NH 7610s in my side pic... that is a bolted on canopy. I can, have and do stand on it to cut limbs from trees.. that's me.. a chainsaw and other gear. The clamp on bracket is 3/8 metal, and is about 8" wide, and is a form fit sandwhich to the rops. The forward support for the canopy comes back to that mounting point. Judging from the fact that the metal doesn't even flex with me up there.. I'd guess it would take another 100# or so.. thent he aluminum canopy would flex.. but not the support brackets. Meaning I could probably load the roof with enough weight to make the aluminum skin on the canopy fail, leaving the steel support brackets hanging there... May take many hundreds of pounds in the center of the aluminum skin to cause that failure...

Whatever yuo do is up to you. All I'm saying is that prudence would be to opt for safety. And that I wouldn't advise anytone to make a modification to a rops that compromised it's certification.. whatever the individual user does is up to them. There are certaintly enough entries into the darwin awards to show that people will do some pretty radical things in order to injure and kill themselves... and modifying a safety structure has to be at the top of that list when it comes down to 'preventability'. though.. I do agree that the actual percentage chance for an issue to occur are probably very low.

As for self modification harming another... I have no legal knowledge of what would be involved.. however it seems 'due care and prudance' would at least be helpfull in your defense... Ie.. look at these 2 scenerios.

1 No your honor.. I did not modify the certified protective structure in any way... I don't know how that man hurt himself like that.

2 Yes your honor, I did modify the certified protective structure in a way that specifically voided the certification... though I don't know how he hurt himself like that.

In those 2 situations.. I smell a money award or personal liability issue on the 2nd one.... Lawyers are pretty tough cookies...

Soundguy

Soundguy

Soundguy,

While I totally agree with your reasoning and facts for not drilling into a ROPS, I'm probably still gonna do it. Welding tabs onto it is still and option, but clamps are really not something I'm interested in. I understand they work in most instances, but I also know that they don't in others. It's really about wether I want a permanent cover as oposed to one I can remove or that is flimsy. This is my definition and term, so what I find flimsy, other might consider more than acceptable. Kind of like those sun shades made from fabric versus those made from fiberglass, plastic or metal. I'm going with metal.

It all boils down to two things here. First is the ability to sue the company that built the tractor in case theres an accident and personal injury or damage occurs. I honestly don't see any scenerio where this will happen. My tractor is several years old, I've beat it really bad and assume full responsiblity for anything that will now brake on it in the future. My only reason to go to the dealer is for parts I can't get at Napa. My warantee is long over and if the ROPS fails, it could be from a dozen other reasons than drilling a few holes through it. I really don't think the holes will make any difference to the strength or integrity anyway. California law or not. hahaha

The other point you make is wether the buyer of the tractor when I sell it can sue me for drilling those holes. In order for that to happen, we need to believe that those holes will be a cause for failure in the case of a rollover and the ROPS fails. Again, has this ever happened? Ever????

Everyone sites many cases of where it "might" or "could" happen, but as of yet, I haven't seen a singe case of this happening. It's kind of like worrying about the moon droping out of the sky on our heads. It's never happened, but maybe it could? OK, sorry for that, but the point is the same. I'm not gonna sweat what could happen when it's never happened.

Again, I'm talking about manufacutred installed ROPS, not some home made job. There is a huge difference here and there is no way to know what a home made system is capable of.

Yes, there are all sorts of silly lawsuits out there and lots of them win because it's cheaper to pay off than to fight. A company I used to work for paid up to $25,000 on lawsuits before fighting them. They would make offers up to that amount in small incriments over time in order to stall or avoid going to trial. It's a game for the lawyers on each side. I've been involvdee with plenty of these scenerios.

Just to through out a few instances that most everyone does that can open them up to similar lawsuits. How about changing the brakes on your own car? If you sell that car and the buyer has an accident, can he sue you for doing the brakes yourself? Are you qualified and certified in your state to change brake pads? I be almost any part on your auto should only be worked on by a certified and licensed mechanic.

Same with home repairs. Has anybody put in an appliance, light fixture, plumbing fixture, window, door or even landscaped there yard? The list goes on and on, but if somebody buys your home, are you liable for those modifications to the house if somebody gets hurt? I bet you are, and even worse, even if you're not, a lawyer can still file a lawsuit against you.

The list is endless from bicycles to boats and homes to work, anybody can be sued for anything. I'm sure it will happen to me, but I'm also sure it will be something totaly rediculous that will cost me ten grand or more to defend. It sucks, but that's the society we live in. I'm still gonna drill my ROPS.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, and hopefully I've made a good argument for my point of view. It doesn't matter to me what anybody does to there tractor, it's their tractor. Cut the ROPS off, drive without your seatbelt and have a beer at the same time. It's your life and I'm all for your living as long or as short as you want to.

Enjoy,
Eddie

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Just as a point of reference, I looked at the 2-post ROPS on my John Deere 2440 last night. There are 2 pairs of drilled and tapped holes (1/4"-20) about half way up each post. They are mounting points for saftey reflectors. Near the top, there are 4 pairs of drilled and tapped holes (3/8"X??) for attaching brackets to support the O.E.M. canopy. The holes are where they needed to be in order to mount items that are located for no other reason than that's where they belong. The holes obviously don't compromise the integrety of the ROPS. I doubt that the structural integrety of a ROPS is so close to marginally safe, that drilling a couple holes would put anyone in grave danger.

MAYBE there's a chance Johnny Cochran (sp) or Perry Mason could get a case overturned because of a couple drilled holes. In the end, someone would have to prove those holes are what caused catistrophic failure. Meanwhile, I'd opt for mounting the canopy and staying out of the sun.

 

[Soundguy]

There is a world of difference in a hole that is put their by the manufacturer, and then the rops is tested and certified with that whole present, vs the homeowner adding a hole and then trying to have the rops recertified.. etc.

Also as to needing a super lawyer.. and needing to -prove- something... Don't count on having to prove anything... Courts deal with doubt.. not proof.

Especially when you look at juries awarding money, and percentage of blame, and out of court settlements. If person 'x' is suing for 10 million dollars.. and the jurry feels that the person 'y' is only 10% responsible.. then we are still talking about a 1 million dollar award.

I learned about that when our company was sued.. as I mentione din the previous messages. The reason all the lawyers settled was that a sympathetic jury may assign a few percent fault to each defendent. And with the requested amount as high as it was.. there could still have ben tens or hundreds of thousands of dolla rs tied up in those few percent.

Next concern is doubt... Don't take much doubt to sway a jury. I just got off jury duty.. at the onset I thought it was going to be an open an shut 'guilty' case. After looking and listening to the limited evidence.. we the jury found enough doubt, to -NOT- convict. Wouldn't be a stretch to have a modified rops sway me against awarding money to a homeowner. A good defense attorney for the ins co is going to point out that the rops were safe as certified.. -before- they were modified... that is going to go a long way in a juries mind.

Again.. we are talking about modifications.. not the oem rops that has welds and holes in it, as certified, by the manufacturer.

Mounting the canopy and staying out of the sun is a null issue.. there are -mulitple- ways to mount canopies, sun shades, buggy tops and umbrellas without voiding your rops warranty.

Soundguy

Just as a point of reference, I looked at the 2-post ROPS on my John Deere 2440 last night. There are 2 pairs of drilled and tapped holes (1/4"-20) about half way up each post. They are mounting points for saftey reflectors. Near the top, there are 4 pairs of drilled and tapped holes (3/8"X??) for attaching brackets to support the O.E.M. canopy. The holes are where they needed to be in order to mount items that are located for no other reason than that's where they belong. The holes obviously don't compromise the integrety of the ROPS. I doubt that the structural integrety of a ROPS is so close to marginally safe, that drilling a couple holes would put anyone in grave danger.

MAYBE there's a chance Johnny Cochran (sp) or Perry Mason could get a case overturned because of a couple drilled holes. In the end, someone would have to prove those holes are what caused catistrophic failure. Meanwhile, I'd opt for mounting the canopy and staying out of the sun.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

There is a world of difference in a hole that is put their by the manufacturer, and then the rops is tested and certified with that whole present, vs the homeowner adding a hole and then trying to have the rops recertified.. etc.

Also as to needing a super lawyer.. and needing to -prove- something... Don't count on having to prove anything... Courts deal with doubt.. not proof.

Especially when you look at juries awarding money, and percentage of blame, and out of court settlements. If person 'x' is suing for 10 million dollars.. and the jurry feels that the person 'y' is only 10% responsible.. then we are still talking about a 1 million dollar award.

I learned about that when our company was sued.. as I mentione din the previous messages. The reason all the lawyers settled was that a sympathetic jury may assign a few percent fault to each defendent. And with the requested amount as high as it was.. there could still have ben tens or hundreds of thousands of dolla rs tied up in those few percent.

Next concern is doubt... Don't take much doubt to sway a jury. I just got off jury duty.. at the onset I thought it was going to be an open an shut 'guilty' case. After looking and listening to the limited evidence.. we the jury found enough doubt, to -NOT- convict. Wouldn't be a stretch to have a modified rops sway me against awarding money to a homeowner. A good defense attorney for the ins co is going to point out that the rops were safe as certified.. -before- they were modified... that is going to go a long way in a juries mind.

Again.. we are talking about modifications.. not the oem rops that has welds and holes in it, as certified, by the manufacturer.

Mounting the canopy and staying out of the sun is a null issue.. there are -mulitple- ways to mount canopies, sun shades, buggy tops and umbrellas without voiding your rops warranty.

Soundguy

My entire point was/is, when John Deere was looking at a way to mount a canopy to their ROPS, they did it by simply drilling a few holes. Simple, no loss of integrity to the ROPS.

There's millions of hypothetical situations to be imagined. Bottom line is, it would make no difference to 99.999999% of us if there was a hole drilled in our ROPS. For that other.000000001%, don't do it.

 

[Soundguy]

My entire point was/is, when John Deere was looking at a way to mount a canopy to their ROPS, they did it by simply drilling a few holes. Simple, no loss of integrity to the ROPS. .

And my entire point was that holes made in the rops prior to certification are factored in to the strength and statistical data used to certify that rops structure, and thus are not a concern. It's the one's added after the math is run that change things.

Soundguy

 

[IslandTractor]

And my entire point was that holes made in the rops prior to certification are factored in to the strength and statistical data used to certify that rops structure, and thus are not a concern. It's the one's added after the math is run that change things.

Soundguy

I don't think anyone is arguing with you around the certification point, the dispute seems to be "in the real world" whether drilling a few holes in a non critical part of the ROPS is likely to make any difference. I would guess (only a guess ) that the JD engineers designed the ROPS to be strong and cheap. That meant using thicker, bigger steel than absolutely necessary especially for the top of the ROPS as the biggest stresses are at the base. Again, only a guess but I betcha they never even recalculated stresses/strength after drilling the canopy mounting holes. They just submitted an example for testing and it passed. I have a hard time believing these ROPS are precision engineered with barely sufficient safety factors to pass the OSHA tests.

 

[Soundguy]

I doubt they are 'just enough' engineered either. I'd wager they have a specified weight range or rating for side and backflip loading.. etc.. . And i wouldn't lay money on the fact that the holes were not evaluated for impact on the strength of the rops.

Soundguy

 

[keeney]

The California code is interesting. Here is one of the sections that is relevant:

e) Modification or Repair. ROPS required by Section 1596(a) may be modified or repaired providing such modification or repair complies with the provisions of Section 1596(d) or Federal OSHA standard 1926.1000(c)(2).

Now, Section 1596(d) says:


(d) Retrofit Design Criteria. The following items comprise the basic design criteria for retrofit ROPS used on scrapers, tractors, front-end loaders, bulldozers, motor graders and water wagon prime movers manufactured prior to April 1, 1971, and for rollers and compactors manufactured prior to July 1, 1977:
(1) Designs shall be based on one of the following:
(A) SAE Recommended Practice J-1040-a, February, 1975, or
(B) Structural analysis calculations equivalent to SAE J-1040-a, or
(C) Capability to support at least 2 times the gross machine weight applied vertically subsequent to an independently applied side load not less than 1.25 times the gross machine weight applied horizontally at the top of ROPS.
NOTE: 1. Gross vehicle weight includes the ROPS, all fuels and other components required for normal use of the vehicle.2. The structural characteristics of the vehicle frame must be included in the design of the ROPS system.3. The mounting brackets shall be capable of withstanding vibration and the design loads applied to the ROPS.
(2) The inside dimensions of the ROPS shall meet the deflection limiting volume requirements of SAE J-397-a, July, 1973. (3) The design of the ROPS shall be approved by a registered civil or mechanical engineer.


It seems what it boils down to is having a registered engineer do structural analysis calculations and sign off on any change. So, the real questions are 1) how big a hassle is that and 2) is an engineer likely to consider drilling a few holes in non structurally critical areas of the ROPS a problem. I imagine it would be quite a hassle unless one found an engineer familiar with the whole process and those are probably not easy to find.

When I worked at Toro in the Test Dept, they did some testing on ROPS. They typically physically confirmed things as described in paragraph 1(C) with an actual machine. They would just setup the machine in the test setup and load the ROPS with 2x the machine weight and make sure it didn't break or bend such that it sill conformed to paragraph (2). Sometimes they did actual roll-over tests (I think they were actually testing the tip angles, not so much the ROP's itself), and sometimes they stressed the ROP's to destruction, but I think that was more about confirming the engineer's calculations than part of the actual certification / liability mitigation.

I am sure they also had some Registered ME's on staff signing off on the design somwhere.

These laws are intended and applied to protect employees from unsafe work conditions that might be imposed on them by their employer skimping on safety equipment like proper ROPS (and proper ROPS modificatIons). You will note that the ROP's have an OSHA approval sticker on them. These laws would typically be enforced against a business (including farms or ranches) that were providing un-certified equipment for their employees. Violations could lead to administrative and criminal penalties if the issue is not corrected promptly.

To avoid a million exceptions and judgement calls, the regulations are plain and straightforward. Have the design signed off by a Registered ME. Same as all kinds of other saftey regulations like building codes. Sometimes when blindly enforced, they can get to be a bit nonsensical in some situaitons, but the line has to be drawn somewhere on who can make the call as to what is safe. Many of us may be qualified to decide for ourselves, but history has shown that leaving the decision in the hands of employers trying to squeeze every penny out of a business leads to decisions not in the best interest of reasonable safety.

The stories of used tractors being dinged on price at resale due to modifed ROPS are true. A dealer can also have these regulations enforced against them.

A factory canopy is likely cheaper than the ME will charge you to certify the modifications even if he only charges you for a couple hours of his time (the consultants I know charge by the 1/2 day minimum at up to a couple hundred dollars per hour). Its only cost effective to hire the registered ME if you plan to build multiple units with the same mod or absolutely require the mod for some important reason.

The main valid reason I see to avoid modifying your own ROPs is possible resale value. If a used equipment dealer or commercial purchaser notices the changes, they may discount the price to accomodate swapping the modified ROPs for a new one.

There are lots of stories of modified or home-brew ROP's failing and people getting hurt (killed). Most of these stories relate to improperly shortened, bad folding designs, or improperly mounted ROP's.

I don't think I have ever heard of a few mounting holes ever killing anybody, but I have seen some lights hanging from ROPs or bolt ends protruding through the bottom that I wouldn't want to hit my head on in a roll-over. Even if it didn't kill you, the end of a 1/4" bolt that sticks out an inch down through the ROP's might put a hole in your head. It might not even take a roll over - a good jounce over a rock might bounce you up into the sharp object.

- Rick

 

[keeney]

... There are 2 pairs of drilled and tapped holes (1/4"-20) about half way up each post. They are mounting points for saftey reflectors. Near the top, there are 4 pairs of drilled and tapped holes (3/8"X??) for attaching brackets to support the O.E.M. canopy.

I would bet the holes are actually metric sizes.

- Rick