While these Chinese tillers are much cheaper comparing with other tillers made in Italy, Turkey, etc why are people still buying other expensive tillers? Don't talk about the quality. There is no significant difference between qualities of all world implements. Same can be said about other implements too. The reason is because of a kind of personal patriotic feelings that like to protect "made in home" products? But, then, Italy, Turkey or most of manufacturers' homes are not their home of most people here.
Tiller Chinese Tillers
- Thread starter nomad
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creeper
Gold Member
You seem to already have your answer....... some people may be concerned about getting parts later, Do you have alot of experience with tillers? Just wondering if you have really compared the quality under working conditions.
I have many specializations in my background from science to engineering to farming to international business, etc. I have sold many implements in many international markets as well as many custom made products. I know of many implements including several tillers made by several manufacturers already. So, experience speaking here. Raw materials (say sheet metals in implements) are more or less same quality between ST37 and 44.) Gearbox cases usually same; all grey cast iron with the same raw material and alloy elements. Tines don't differ. Usually, the only difference between two tillers is in laborship quality in building together, for example, in welding. Another difference is usually in painting method; some uses powder paint, some uses spray paint. Okay, these differences will cost some extra money, but there should not be so much difference in the prices. Parts supply in implements is usually not a problem. Parts of most of tillers and other implements will fit each other without a problem. Finally, note that you can not find another person who can talk good about products of his competitiors. It's only me.
GeneD14
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In my neck of the woods we don't have any dealers near by that even sell Chinese implements. Even if there were local dealers I would only consider if they offered a great warranty, because I have bought may tools that were made in China and they have a high mortality rate .
viking65
Gold Member
Here is an example of a 42" Chinese FarmPro tiller for $1099.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66889&item=7516765870&rd=1
I'll gladly pay another $151 (12%), which I did, for a Woods GTC40, made in Italy I believe. I can go to any of hundreds of Woods dealers for parts and service.
"Much cheaper", I don't see it. The Farmpro is definately not a bargain compared to the Woods GTC40. And it's certainly not a better tiller.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66889&item=7516765870&rd=1
I'll gladly pay another $151 (12%), which I did, for a Woods GTC40, made in Italy I believe. I can go to any of hundreds of Woods dealers for parts and service.
"Much cheaper", I don't see it. The Farmpro is definately not a bargain compared to the Woods GTC40. And it's certainly not a better tiller.
thegreatrandini
Gold Member
You see if you don't have to pay shipping china stuff can be a bargin. I have seen farm pro tillers at the traveling tool sale for about $600.00. I think that is a good deal but I do not think that they are as good as tiller as my KK II. They have the curved tines. I have very heavy duty L tines. They are painted every bit as well. I would like to run one and see what I think of it... Also you have to assemble all that chinese stuff... I have the farm pro $100 dollar blade and I am very happy with it but the KK blades at TSC are more heavy duty and easier to change the angle on. So I agree that there are bargins in china stuff I disagree that they are all the same...
Villengineer
Gold Member
You really like to beat on these dead horses don't you. I seem to remember you bringing this up not that long ago. Any way, I have seen one of the Chinese tillers (Farm Pro) and they really don't compare to the other tillers I've seen. There are differences in the main areas of concern when it comes to just about any piece of equipment: materials, workmanship, servicability, support, and usefullness. Let's look at this based on each of these areas. Materials - First, there are often differences in the materials, even if they are supposed to be the same "grade". I know this because we routinely investigate the various international options where I work. We do use some castings from China, but have rejected the vast majority of the Chinese products. While the chemistry might be correct, or at least close, the material is often still sub par. Especially in castings, they often have a much higher rate of inclusions, slag pockets, and other issues. Why would their tillers be any different? Also the one I saw used significantly lighter components than other tillers I've seen. Since I own and use a tiller, I know that lighter is not necessarily better. Also, you don't need to be an engineer to see that they are not "making up" for the lighter material based on design. Workmanship - You are correct in that welding is often a problem, but so is general adherance to GD&T. We see more Chinese part rejections due to the fact that they simply aren't what the print specified than any other factor. Often they simply look bad, too. The tiller I saw did not appear to be an improvement in any of those areas. You don't have to have the prints to see these problems when parts don't quite line up and the welds are usually self incriminating. Servicability - While you are correct in that there appear to be several tiller lines which at least seem to be close cousins and the parts would most likely be interchangable, I don't see the similarities in the Chinese tiller. That coupled with the fact that, like others have said, dealers and/or parts sources are either non-existant or few and far between. Ebay is NOT what I consider a reliable source for parts. Some sources of the tillers simply don't carry replacement parts at all. Also, you stated that tines don't differ. What? Have you not looked at the various tillers? The tines on a KK look nothing like the tines on a Yanmar which aren't the same as the Farm Pro which won't work on a Howard. Therefore servicability is a problem. Support - As I mentioned above, the majority of the sources for these tillers are only interested in the initial sale. This isn't limited to the Chinese tillers, but certainly is magnified with them. Usefullness - I think I have seen 2 versions of these tillers and the only difference was width. If you peruse the various threads on tillers you'll find that many owners/potential owners are looking for specific widths and other features that the Chinese tillers don't offer. There may be other Chinese tillers available, but the common one is as basic and "bare bones" as you can get. I am sure that there is a market for these, especially at the lower $ I've seen on them. However, I don't see how you can compare them as equals or expect a majority of buyers to change their specifications.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Finally, note that you can not find another person who can talk good about products of his competitiors. It's only me. )</font> Please, this happens all the time in all areas of commerce. I can think of a recent instances right here on TBN where people have discussed the advantages of competitors products.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Finally, note that you can not find another person who can talk good about products of his competitiors. It's only me. )</font> Please, this happens all the time in all areas of commerce. I can think of a recent instances right here on TBN where people have discussed the advantages of competitors products.
KennedyDiesel
Veteran Member
Parts availability, quality, and US jobs. Whenever possible, I buy USA. Yes my USA stuff contains foreign built components, but...
slowrev
Elite Member
Yeah I remember when Japanese stuff was considered Junk, Now JD tractors and stuff are built there. Just wait a few years and big name small tractors will be built in china as well. JD and big 3 automakers are already in manufacturing deals there.
the only disadvantage I can see with current chinese tillers is parts availability.
Ben
the only disadvantage I can see with current chinese tillers is parts availability.
Ben
Egon
Epic Contributor
What is your product Nomad?? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Egon /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Egon /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Dargo
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I do not expect to have to work on my implements every time I use them. From what I've heard, and seen with neighbors who wanted to "save a buck" and bought the really cheap Chinese stuff; they got really cheap Chinese stuff. No offense intended, but I can readily see the difference in quality between the "bargain" Chinese stuff and the quality pieces. If you don't mind wrenching and part searching (or making), and you have the luxury of having the time to work on the stuff.... Myself, I'll pay the extra hundred bucks or so for a known quality and the ability to get parts when needed.
I am beating on dead horses? What does this saying mean? If it means I am making dead horses/topics re-alive, then I am glad. Science philosophers in the world in last decade have focused themselves onto only "where they have made mistakes in the past" instead of trying to find new things, instead of walking toward the future. They have started to see what I had seen a decade ago or two.
Detecting problems in other materials such as sheet metals, I,U,T beams, pipes, etc is easy and they can be improved easily by paying manufacturer only a little bit more. Using better or required grade materials is not a problem, does not require knowledge. Only payment a little bit more. You know this and your main complain concerning materials of Chinese products is about their casting quality only. This is a good example as it requires some more knowledge and some quality workmanship. You are an engineer at a construction machinery factory, aren't you? If you are at buying office of your factory, send me an acad drawing of one of your components or two. I will have one sample casted here and will have another sample casted in China. You will see there is no quality difference between them. And, you will like qualities of both of them. Buying offices of factories and also distributors/importers are usually making mistakes. All they do is to try to pay minimum. I pay a little bit more for Chinese products and I get much better quality Chinese items than the items made in the west you call quality item. For your information, gearboxes of KK tillers/cutters/etc are being made in China too. Lets not mention about many components of top tractors of world which are already being manufactured in China. So, if they want, they manufacture much better than anywhere, and still much cheaper than anywhere in the world, don't they? Then, why are some Chinese products low quality? You try to pay as low as possible. Your buying office at the factory is making mistake. Send me your dwg and let me prove.
Detecting problems in other materials such as sheet metals, I,U,T beams, pipes, etc is easy and they can be improved easily by paying manufacturer only a little bit more. Using better or required grade materials is not a problem, does not require knowledge. Only payment a little bit more. You know this and your main complain concerning materials of Chinese products is about their casting quality only. This is a good example as it requires some more knowledge and some quality workmanship. You are an engineer at a construction machinery factory, aren't you? If you are at buying office of your factory, send me an acad drawing of one of your components or two. I will have one sample casted here and will have another sample casted in China. You will see there is no quality difference between them. And, you will like qualities of both of them. Buying offices of factories and also distributors/importers are usually making mistakes. All they do is to try to pay minimum. I pay a little bit more for Chinese products and I get much better quality Chinese items than the items made in the west you call quality item. For your information, gearboxes of KK tillers/cutters/etc are being made in China too. Lets not mention about many components of top tractors of world which are already being manufactured in China. So, if they want, they manufacture much better than anywhere, and still much cheaper than anywhere in the world, don't they? Then, why are some Chinese products low quality? You try to pay as low as possible. Your buying office at the factory is making mistake. Send me your dwg and let me prove.
Villengineer
Gold Member
The horse only died a year ago. Certainly you have to understand that with no significant changes made to the product nor the sales/support structure that the market dynamics aren't going to change much in such a short amount of time. Perhaps in the future the Chinese tillers will do well, but I think the fact that you're getting the same answers now that you did then should clue you in on what the market wants.
As far as quality of foreign goods are concerned, I will agree that if you are willing to pay for it, you can most likely get a quality product just about anywhere in the world. The question then becomes why pay to have it made somewhere else? There are 2 basic premises to importing a product 1) cheaper and at least adequate or 2) better and financially feasable. If they don't meet these criteria it doesn't make sense.
In fact, the company I work for has a manufacturing facility in China for the Chinese market. The Chinese facility regularly pays more for Chinese made parts than our other manufacturing facilities would because it makes logistical and geopolitical sense. It doesn't make sense for our other facilities to pay the same amount to import when they can get similar components locally for like money.
The point of all this is that what we are seeing here most likely is not the best equipment they have to offer and that combined with the other reasons is why they are not taking a significant market share. If the good stuff has to sell in the same price range as the current market holders, it will have to overcome the reputation built on the current products.
As far as quality of foreign goods are concerned, I will agree that if you are willing to pay for it, you can most likely get a quality product just about anywhere in the world. The question then becomes why pay to have it made somewhere else? There are 2 basic premises to importing a product 1) cheaper and at least adequate or 2) better and financially feasable. If they don't meet these criteria it doesn't make sense.
In fact, the company I work for has a manufacturing facility in China for the Chinese market. The Chinese facility regularly pays more for Chinese made parts than our other manufacturing facilities would because it makes logistical and geopolitical sense. It doesn't make sense for our other facilities to pay the same amount to import when they can get similar components locally for like money.
The point of all this is that what we are seeing here most likely is not the best equipment they have to offer and that combined with the other reasons is why they are not taking a significant market share. If the good stuff has to sell in the same price range as the current market holders, it will have to overcome the reputation built on the current products.
Inspector507
Super Member
<font color="blue"> I am beating on dead horses? What does this saying mean? </font>
It means no matter how many times you beat a dead horse, you're not going to get any more work out him than you are right now. Or he's not going to go any faster. So in reality it's doing no good /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
It means no matter how many times you beat a dead horse, you're not going to get any more work out him than you are right now. Or he's not going to go any faster. So in reality it's doing no good /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
SPIKER
Elite Member
I posted in the last time this similar thread came up:
I own a china tiller, and have had it for going on 4 seasons now, tilled a 1/2 acre garden about 20 times now and tilled unknown ground for a (in a straight line distance probably 1 mile) making rows for tree plantings full width of a 4 acre field spaced 10' appart. and then a good 20 + more rows in a 6 acre parcle. I hit many good sized rocks haven't broken a tine yet, (I got extras just in case & figured I would have broken a bunch of them but not a single one!) mine is not the chain drive it is a center harrow gear drive and what I would say is very heavy duty for a 46" tiller. it kept my tractor from sliding down an imbankment once too causing some bending of the center tine/harrow which I was able to remove & straighten with a press back to like new shape. (tractor slide sideways down into the creek when I was working the edge of the creek with the FEL and the bank gave way dripping tractor sideways almost 4' tiller caught top of bank as the wheels slide down. stopped the rear end alowed the front to slide & swing the front down hill facing straigher down. less sideways. FEL had a hugh pile of debris (old multi-floral rose, briars weeds ect pushed up in front.) was pretty stuck & finall had to drive forward on through & across the creek further twisting the tiller as the 3pt wouldn't go UP any farther due to the left rear wheel almost floating in air. (kind of high centered the tractor on the tiller & FEL... )
anyhow I got destracted.
I would get one again if I could get the same TYPE of gear drive unit... I'm not fond of ANY of the chain drives..
MarkM
I own a china tiller, and have had it for going on 4 seasons now, tilled a 1/2 acre garden about 20 times now and tilled unknown ground for a (in a straight line distance probably 1 mile) making rows for tree plantings full width of a 4 acre field spaced 10' appart. and then a good 20 + more rows in a 6 acre parcle. I hit many good sized rocks haven't broken a tine yet, (I got extras just in case & figured I would have broken a bunch of them but not a single one!) mine is not the chain drive it is a center harrow gear drive and what I would say is very heavy duty for a 46" tiller. it kept my tractor from sliding down an imbankment once too causing some bending of the center tine/harrow which I was able to remove & straighten with a press back to like new shape. (tractor slide sideways down into the creek when I was working the edge of the creek with the FEL and the bank gave way dripping tractor sideways almost 4' tiller caught top of bank as the wheels slide down. stopped the rear end alowed the front to slide & swing the front down hill facing straigher down. less sideways. FEL had a hugh pile of debris (old multi-floral rose, briars weeds ect pushed up in front.) was pretty stuck & finall had to drive forward on through & across the creek further twisting the tiller as the 3pt wouldn't go UP any farther due to the left rear wheel almost floating in air. (kind of high centered the tractor on the tiller & FEL... )
anyhow I got destracted.
I would get one again if I could get the same TYPE of gear drive unit... I'm not fond of ANY of the chain drives..
MarkM
Ryno1
Silver Member
Nomad, you appear to be involved in manufacturing implements in Turkey, so I don't understand why your talking up the China products? Or am I missing something - as usual.
KennedyDiesel
Veteran Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Here is an example of a 42" Chinese FarmPro tiller for $1099.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66889&item=7516765870&rd=1
I'll gladly pay another $151 (12%), which I did, for a Woods GTC40, made in Italy I believe. I can go to any of hundreds of Woods dealers for parts and service.
"Much cheaper", I don't see it. The Farmpro is definately not a bargain compared to the Woods GTC40. And it's certainly not a better tiller.
)</font>
Agreed! My Deere 450 tiller is about 8 years old now. I've tilled many hours with it and dislodged many rocks over the size of a grapefruit with it. The only casualty is the gate chain stretched to an unrecognizeable pitch from all the bouncing and the slotted bar that holds the chain bent open from all of the bouncing in rocky soil.
The tines are just about worn out and ready for replacement.
I realize this is a global board, but don't say I didn't warn you when the Asian economys take over the majority of industry/ownership of industry in the future...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66889&item=7516765870&rd=1
I'll gladly pay another $151 (12%), which I did, for a Woods GTC40, made in Italy I believe. I can go to any of hundreds of Woods dealers for parts and service.
"Much cheaper", I don't see it. The Farmpro is definately not a bargain compared to the Woods GTC40. And it's certainly not a better tiller.
)</font>
Agreed! My Deere 450 tiller is about 8 years old now. I've tilled many hours with it and dislodged many rocks over the size of a grapefruit with it. The only casualty is the gate chain stretched to an unrecognizeable pitch from all the bouncing and the slotted bar that holds the chain bent open from all of the bouncing in rocky soil.
The tines are just about worn out and ready for replacement.
I realize this is a global board, but don't say I didn't warn you when the Asian economys take over the majority of industry/ownership of industry in the future...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Nomad, you appear to be involved in manufacturing implements in Turkey, so I don't understand why your talking up the China products? Or am I missing something - as usual. )</font>
I am speaking up about them because I am a fairful gentleman unlike most, classical businessmen. China is a big supplier with many many similar items with many different qualities from low to average to high. Most of importers in the west are importing lowest quality products to keep their profit room larger. But, even their average quality products of Chinese companies can compete anyone both in quality and in price.
I am speaking up about them because I am a fairful gentleman unlike most, classical businessmen. China is a big supplier with many many similar items with many different qualities from low to average to high. Most of importers in the west are importing lowest quality products to keep their profit room larger. But, even their average quality products of Chinese companies can compete anyone both in quality and in price.
